Those of us who follow a lot of trials here and else immediately recognized the name Baden when the family attorney announce he would be doing an independent investigation. I won’t go into the reasons why we place no credibility into his work, you can either take word for it or google his name. You will find plenty to read. I was not familiar with the name Shawn Parcells and with three autopsies I really didn’t care much about that one. If you recall, the I said from the beginning that the only one I care about is the first one. It would have the intact body, unwashed, include toxicology and be the most relevant to the case, in my opinion. It was conducted by Mary Case, the Chief Medical Examiner of Saint Louis County.
I had a decent following during the Jodi Arias trial and as always people began contacting me by email to tell me inside scoop and rumors. One of those people, who still comments here but shall remain nameless, is close to a pathologist who is in the loop on some high-profile cases. The commenter emailed me in textspeak the other night and I didn’t have time to interpret but finally asked the commenter to break it down in plain English for me and the gist of the email is that allegedly Baden did not conduct the actual autopsy, he just gave an opinion. The actual autopsy was done by Shawn Parcells who is not licensed to conduct autopsies.
Wait what? Not licensed to conduct autopsies? So off I go to read about this fool and see if it’s true. In fact, if I had jumped on the text speak email this would be breaking news. However, I still seem to be the only one reporting that allegedly Shawn Parcells conducted the autopsy.
Here is what Dr. Case told DailyCaller.com:
“He is doing forensic autopsies which may send someone to prison, and he is not a physician, much less a forensic pathologist,” she told TheDC, adding that forensic pathologists and medical examines throughout the U.S. “are shocked by this man and how bold he is to do what he does. No one stops him.” she said.
Case said that Baden, 80, “is an excellent forensic pathologist.” At a press conference Monday, Baden said the same thing about her.
From FOX4KC News (Kansas City):
“I am a forensic pathologist assistant and medical investigator,” Parcells told FOX 4’s Shannon O’Brien.
However, that’s something of a dubious title according to forensic pathologist Dr. Erik Mitchell.
“That is a degree that does not exist in my knowledge, except in the mind of Shawn Parcells,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Dr. Mitchell takes issue with Parcells’ title. “You cannot claim the title, because it is a formal, licensable position. You can assist somebody; in this way I can say, for instance, I have paid my taxes, so I am an assistant President of the United States,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Parcells admits he has no certification as a pathology assistant, but says his qualification comes from experience.
“I worked there as a forensic assistant for about a year. And if I remember correctly that was 2005 to 2006. That was under Dr. Young,” Parcells said. That’s Dr. Thomas Young, the former Jackson County Medical Examiner. “And that’s honestly where I gained a lot of my experience,” Parcells said. Parcells says his training began in 1997 when he interned with Dr. Young, until he was hired in the mid-2000’s.
Dr. Young responded with this statement:
“Shawn hung out at the Jackson County Medical Examiner’s office but was not trained by me.”…. “He has been representing himself in a way that is not appropriate by giving forensic pathology opinions when he is not qualified to do so.He has none of the qualifications that are required. He has experience as a morgue technician, somebody who would move bodies around, clean up after an autopsy,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Parcells says he has detractors because of a competitive system.“A lot of this was started because I have competitors who I was taking business from. And the coroners, also, is a very political system. It’s buddy-buddy, who’s your buddy?” Parcells said.
Dr. Mitchell doesn’t agree. “Jealousy has nothing to do with the issue with Parcells. Parcells is practicing medicine without a license,” he said.
What is interesting to me is that Crump and the Brown family seemed very eager to get their autopsy out into the media as soon as possible. Why is that? It totally discredits their prime witness Dorian Johnson. The report states that all of the gunshots where fired to the front of Brown’s body, or more specifically that there were no shots to the back of the body. They claim that the autopsy can’t determine whether or not Brown’s hands were up when he was shot. It was not the autopsy result they were hoping for. So why the rush to put it out there? I could speculate a few things. Crump, Baden, and Parcells are all media whores. Is that enough reason? For them probably. But the pathology source I have says that the local autopsy will be much more clear in going against the chain of events the Brown family has put their faith in. The “Baden” autopsy will be the best one for the Brown family (as bad as it is for their case) so they are trying to get it out ahead of the local, competent medical examiner.
One other thing to consider, the Parcells person got the body second. Because he is not a trained pathologist, Lord only knows how much damage he caused to the body before it got to the Department of Justice pathologist. So the third autopsy could also have some issues.
To clarify a point: I believe that Baden was credited with the autopsy because he is the only forensic pathologist in the room then he allegedly just let the guy who has mopped up after a few autopsies do the examination. Allegedly.
This is the part where I tell you that once again I was right and the only autopsy that should be considered is the first one.
UPDATE: All you investigative types are sending me this link to a pathology blog regarding numerous issues with Shawn Parcells this one is his bloviated defense to all the negative articles that have going on since last year. It is super long and there are enough stories to keep you there reading all day. Or you could just read the two sources above that discredit the jackhole entirely. It all depends on how you want to spend your day. Frankly, I am trying to keep a promise to my dog and get out and enjoy the weather for at least ten minutes today.
My jaw just hit the floor.
Mine too! Thank god we have you to report the truth!
How are his autopsies allowed into evidence? Shouldn’t they get thrown out before they are heard in open court? Why would a lawyer risk their case with this dude?
always figured you were right TT, we did go through Travis’s and Trayvons, and others, autopsy results pretty thorougly. since this happened alot of us have said to wait for all the info, just to be called foul things. and those that called us those refuse to accept that gentle giant mike played a big role in his death. i used to like baden on hbo, then he had to talk shit about dr g on tv and i lost all respect for the man. so the impersonator did the dr stuff and baden watched? then released an incomplete report. did i get that right?
He was talking shit about my girl Dr G.? Oh NOhe better not! I wish Dr G. could have done this autopsy. Yes, I know that’s not how it works, but still, ideally…
ok, my first question is why did Dr Baden allow this Parcells person to assist him if he’s not certified, and why is Shawn Parcells appearing on news shows to report the findings? All this bullshit (including dubious eye witness accounts) being reported by the national news media is fanning the flames in this volatile case. Being first with the news is only good if your info is CORRECT.
This does explain why Baden didn’t charge the family for his services.
And neither did the coroner’s mop up boy because, well, that would be practicing medicine without a license.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
He had a really small or is for a black man.
I wasn’t going to mention the penis. We were not supposed to be looking there, you idiot.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Hahaha
Is this the way you speak to your members? LOL
If sure is. Fortunately for you, you won’t be commenting here anymore. Troll on to the next place…
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I thought it was a cup holder
it was cold in the autopsy room
Oh crap. Parcells works in the same suburb of KCKS that I live in. Wonderful.
Yikes! Make sure you, or your loved ones die somewhere else or end up in the hands of this clown!
Love your icon!
Right!?
Or if you really need to get rid of a problem head to Kansas City….
Where does he work? I am serious when I tell you his company is one that mops up after crime scenes and cleans autopsy rooms.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I just emailed a link to you. He’s been very busy here.
As shown above, I see no gunshot wound indicated on the back. If Brown was indeed shot in the back while running away from the police, it would be just as clearly indicated as the 6 to the front. But there is nothing. Am I missing something?
No missing a thing. As I said this autopsy “confirmed” not bullet wounds entered the back. Did I misstate? Sorry I am sorry of multitasking today…
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
No TT, just me being a little slow on the uptake. But on point, exactly. Someone should print it off by the hundreds and hand it out to all the protesters who still believe he was shot in the back. But they won’t believe it anyway, because they have too much invested in their own version of events.
they are saying the grazing wound to the forearm was while he was running away. but if he was doing jodis linebacker lunge that coresponds to the reentry wound to the chest pretty closely
Thanks Steve. Good Jodi Arias analogy.
I hate to admit this, but in clicking around last night, I happened on Nancy Grace interviewing Shawn Parcells. She was asking him if one of the wounds on his arm (from a bullet that apparently then re-entered his body at his chest) could have occurred if Michael Brown had his elbow bent, with his hand up. She wanted to know if that wound was consistent with Brown pumping his arms as he charged the officer. She didn’t ask if it was also consistent with him having his hands up-even though it seems like it could lead credence to that piece of info as well. Hearing that this man isn’t even trained to perform autopsies, I’m wondering about the accuracy of anything he says.
I think the only hard results released confirm no gunshots to the back and a minimal tox screen showed marijuana. I think they said no close range gunshots. Anything further than I think 9 inches is considered to be not clse range. Hey Steve and cat more gallows humor please.
I think the only hard results released confirm no gunshots to the back and a minimal tox screen showed marijuana. I think they said no close range gunshots. Anything further than I think 9 inches is not considered to be close range. Hey Steve and cat more gallows humor please.
I watched this Shawn Parcells eagerly getting face time on several of the news shows and I was perplexed. I almost wondered why Baden would have anything to do with him, except that I think Baden is a media clown who just can’t think straight anymore. But Parcells was so odd. He couldn’t string a proper sentence together, his grammar was very poor, and he looked like an unshaven, unwashed used car salesman. I immediately thought he was a fraud. I kept wondering why the news directors didn’t cut him off quickly, because he seemed so phony. There’s something astonishingly stupid about that whole situation.
TT, has anybody had a look at the clothes, socks, sandals/shoes, he was wearing at that time. At this instance, do you think, these items, would bring any further light to the case.
If you already have discussed this issue, previously, then please ignore my ignorance.
Btw, when do you find time to cook, eat, etc etc..
The idiot floor mopper and Crump keep saying that the autopsy will not be complete until the inside of the car is examined or if clothes are looked at.
That is all happening but TO BE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE the medical examiner examines the body. A CSI type person will do the clothes and the cigar boxes and the police truck and the other physical evidence.
And I don’t have time to eat or sleep which is why I am such a bitch all the time. 🙂 Well that and genetics. And hormones. 🙂
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Hahaha…maybe “someone” should drag you out to eat BBQs once again, and make this person laugh and swoon at all your witty stories…
And what about the chirren..aka Banjo? 🙂
Banjo is very unhappy with me. I keep promising him a W A L K
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
awww, too bad, I would have loved to have taken Banjo, out for a walk and a run too. I am sure he understands his Mummy is busy.
TT, I think you have got a handle on the division of duties, forensics takes time. You could get results that lead to other necessary tests. Professionals look at murder as a serious issue and not an opportunity to go on HLN.
You are correct .
Lol. “Banjo is very unhappy with me. I keep promising him a W A L K ”
Did you intentionally spell out walk so Poor, poor, neglected Banjo doesn’t know what your ‘ typing’ about?
Um, Duh? I can’t say or think the word or HE KNOWS. He did get a W A L K that day, but not today It was hot as balls.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 7:15 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Wow. How is it that an unpaid blogger is a more responsible journalist than most of the paid ones I’ve been reading? What a manipulation of the American public. Well that explains why they had Baden as their mouthpiece since the guy doing the autopsy was not qualified. Baden let them save money since he didn’t have to do the work himself or be held liable for it — he just gets press. If Parcells is practicing medicine without a license, then why the hell isn’t he in jail. “Hands up, don’t shoot, Parcells.”
She is much more intelligent and she won’t even give her fans a picture, much less go on HLN.
Ms. TT is no joke, she takes her reporting seriously unlike the average media clown rushing to put out any nonsense to make their editor happy. Too many news shows + too much competition = shitty reporting.
As TT once noted, you really do have to read multiple liberal + moderate conservative papers to get the real story.
and thats why we stay here at TTs, even when we scream at each other.
Exactly right, Steve! We are grownups. Well, most of us. Last but not least, I also come here for the creative cursing…cuntsatchels..twat whistle…it has expanded my vocabulary! ☺
been waiting to use penis wrinkle but didnt want to waste it on the eel
Yes, it is a shame that a blogger is more accurate than most of the rest of the media. I saw that when TT was able to sort out all of the sentencing issues with Joe Gudice. One of the networks should snap her up. I would follow her in a second. She researches and explains what she finds in an understandable manner. As far as I am concerned she puts the rest of the media to shame.
Thanks Pam.
I don’t think the mass media has time for the facts.
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I have the contact info for his office, if you want to dig deeper. I’m still looking, too. This guy works not too far from where I live. I’ll do some more snooping, and email you if I find anything juicy.
He’s listed as MR. Shawn Parcell….not DR. I don’t understand why they would let him do this.
Yikes! They also do tissue recovery…..so if any parts go missing in the last autopsy, you will know where they probably went.
I’ve already looked into it before I wrote the post. Did you read the Fox news story in this post or did you skip it because they hate black people? 🙂 It’s all in there.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I skipped the fox article, because you already used it in your blog. I trust your skills.
I’m trying to dig down and find local dirt on this guy. And I think I found it…at least a starting point. I’ll dig deeper.
Actually dear, it is a different fox article from your local fox station that tears apart all of mop boys lies. Therefore it is not necessary for me to go back and read all the allegations from 2013 because I do not have the time nor the inclination.
Mop boy is a douche who has no business doing autopsies. Cased closed. I do not need anymore information. I had all I needed when I wrote the article. Thanks and have a nice day.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
Also please go read commenting rules again. Especially #`10
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/commenting-rules/ Before I snatch some tokens. I am working of about six other things and am not interested in the life story of mop boy. I hear the cries of not reporting enough reality TV today coming already. I’m done with this issue.
xoxo
>
Ha! I’ll have to owe you tokens, since you’ve never given me any. 🙂
Maybe they couldn’t find anyone else locally who would agree to perform this second autopsy when the more than capable Dr. Case already performed one. Wasn’t this second autopsy done hurriedly on a Sunday too?
Dr. Case had some very damning words to say. She was probably insulted by Mr. Parcells spouting his mouth off to the media regarding such an important autopsy.
Dr. Case only said nice things about Baden because it would be unprofessional to do anything else. Doctors generally don’t disparage other doctors publicly. That is why it is so hard to get a doctor to give a contradictory diagnosis in a malpractice suit. It’s unwritten code.
But since Joe the plumber did the autopsy he is fair game.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Is this your article? Someone else came up with this theory few days ago.
Of course it is my article. Are you having problems with your reading comprehension?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Please boot bionicMe to lalalala land. How dare he/she question you!
Long time reader! Never commented before, but had to on this!
Isn’t what this guy is doing criminal in some way?
I was a veterinary tech for many years. I was in the operating rooms assisting with surgeries, but that never qualified me to actually perform one. If I had and were caught I would have prosecuted.
Baden’s results were never going to be entered as evidence it was a dog and pony show. Even his best efforts discredited Dorian Johnson. He was medical examiner for New York from 1978- 1979. One year. I wonder why he left…..
Baden jumped the shark on this one. Parcells tried to pass himself off as a professor…..I wonder if he even has a college degree. The Media is losing credibility even speaking to this pathetic poser.
He has a BS in life science/chemistry from Kansas state. He also says he is a professor at Wichita state, but the university says no. It seems like Mr. and Mrs. Brown got ripped off. This guy should go into business with Phaedra.
BS is right…
his dissertation will read “if you cant dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bull”
Again. Thanks for all the Parcells info everyone. I do not need anymore. Seriously. Please. I get it. I boiled it down into a easy to read (or so I thought, I also assumed you would read it before commenting) nugget. If you want to do a errrrr… full autopsy on the mop boy, knock yourselves out. But please stop sending me things on Parnells. I have so many other things to work on today.
Thanks.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Well, if he’s a professor at WSU, that’s one hell of a commute. Wichita is almost 200 miles from here.
He also prepares people’s taxes. Busy guy.
WTF!? I will proceed to mop my own Damn jaw and drool off the floor! !
When I heard Baden was doing the second autopsy I told my husband it was a really bad idea. Even before these new revelations Dr. Baden had very little credibility in my eyes. He’s a opinion for hire and nothing more. The publicity surrounding the killing of this young man was enough “payment” for him this time.
So can anyone say “hey, hand me that dead body!”…”We’re going to rip into this one illegally.” allegedly.
Seriously, what is the actual protocol when it comes to outsourcing an autopsy requested by a Family? Or anyone.
I just want to say that you are officially my new favorite person! I love how your report inside info you have received about everything without leaving something out because it doesn’t fit into your belief. Very honorable and rare!
I haven’t read comments yet but my dad posted some articles about how shady Parcells is last night. Apparently a couple of his autopsy results have caused issues in court and one court case had to be postponed just a few months ago because he signed a pathologists name that wasn’t working for him at the time of the autopsy…..
This guy is a piece of work.
What I read (I will email the article when I find it) stated that Parcells runs a company were they do investigative autopsy’s, servicing KC MO, and several smaller towns across MO. He can’t actually do them but he employs pathologists and he assists them, they are officially signing off on the reports.
Its astonishing to me that we all read/watched the results from Baden/Parcells be presented and yet the people believing this was murder see completely different results than I do. Today I was told that the autopsy proved Brown was running away, shot in the back and had his hands up. WHAT?!?!!?
I was told the same thing. I was happening to watch the briefing on the hostage situation overseas and they finish the discuss and cut to the attorney for the Brown’s family. What got me, is his speech on justice, but when the reporter ask him-will it bring justice to the family if the officer is given his due process and is not indicted? He in turn said no, because he believe all the witness statements which proves the officer’s guilt. However, neither mention the conflicting stories the main witness has given or the conflicting stories several witnesses has told the media. Like the one who said he never saw him charge the officer, after he heard the two shots. The saddest part of this whole story is, you would think with the many so call witnesses and so-call expert medical official, that the truth would not be so dame muddy.
Justice to the Brown family is revenge. Revenge is not justice.
Thanks for that comment Latrise? Did the officer follow up with the question, ” How can you believe witness statements that are contradicted by your own private autopsy?” Or did the interviewer who was probably white say something conciliatory and that Crump for his good works.
That’s a rhetorical question.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Thank you for the fair reporting. It appears as if you may be the only one doing so. Where was Nancy Grace’s staff when they were looking into interviewing Parcells? This totally discredits her show (it wouldn’t take much to do so). All I hear on CNN is a bunch of nonsense coming from rapper/activists and ambulence chasing lawyers who sweep down on grieving parents like vultures. On HLN…well, we’ve established the credibility or lack therreof already.
How do you know that the pre-eminent Dr. Michael Baden who has autopsied since President Kennedy in1963 didn’t do the examination? Who told you that? Dr. Baden said he performed the autopsy and I stand by him. By the way, you quoted that right wing screed, The Daily Caller, that is the Bible for the most far right zealots in the U.S. And you quoted Fox News. Why not take a look at the news accounts of the Washington Post, the New York Times, the L.A. Times or MSNBC? They are far more reliable.
I thought I told your ass to take a hike, Anna. I’ll add you to the list of people too stupid to take direction and see you in the streets soon.
bye now.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Hehehe
But I will give you one more free lecture in an attempt to give you more education before I throw you out on your ignornant, misinformed head. In 1963, Baden was 29 I hate to break the news to you but he did not doe JFK’s autopsy either. He was 3 years out of medical school. His only association with JFK came in 1978 when he was one of nine doctors who participated in House Select Committee made up of dozens of people who spent 3 years making sure that the government in the 1960s really solved the JFK assassination. After three years of wasted tax dollars the money at a cost of $5million because some politicians wanted some attention, the found that the initial reports were correct.
Baden’s role was to sit with 8 other doctors and look at autopsy pictures and agree that “Yep, them there is two bullet holes, looks like that is what did him in.”
During that appointment he was perceived as some up and coming pathologist so he was hired by New York to work as a medical examiner. He lasted one year. I wonder why he was not kept on there?
After that he clung to the JFK notoriety and eventually became a forensic pathologist for hire in notorious cases where the defendant was guilty testifying for the defense.
I quoted sources who had actual first person interviews with the people involved in the post. Because it is much better to use a quote from someone’s mouth as a fact that your little feelings or the ideas fed to you by mass media, you little pissant sheep.
Now you have two choices. Door number one you can. “Leave this board forever!!!” or Door number two, you can sit your ignorant ass in several seats and try to learn something.
I don’t give a fuck. But you won’t be posting here again.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Hehehe
Amen. I am old enough to remember Baden’s role in the Kennedy thing and you are absolutely correct. He and his wife arer a couple of famewhores who will do anything for a buck and a few minutes of camera time. I wouldn’t trust him to do an autopsy at his age and I believe that he only gave an “opinion” in this one.
He testified for the defense in the OJ trial.
That’s all I need to know.
Dr. James Humes performed JFK’s autopsy , he was assisted by Dr. J Thornton Boswell. The POTUS is the commander in chief and his care is overseen by the military. Baden had nothing to do with JFK. He is a pre-eminent douche. I guess TT has already banished you but get a clue.
Baden was reportedly paid $250,000 for the Phil Spector trial. For that kind of money, it looks like he was getting paid for more than an autopsy and more likely an “opinion”. He’s basically just a hired gun for the defense in high profile cases.
Exactly. 93.4% of the time he doesn’t conduct the autoposy. He comes in after the fact to grade the paper of the person who did. And if the defense is paying he gives that spin. He is almost always a defense witness.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:54 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Long time reader, first time posting a comment. Here’s one bit that might actually shed some light: in the press conference Baden didn’t say all shots were fired to the front as has been widely reported. What he said was that all shots were to the front of the autopsy anatomy chart, which shows the arms in a position that is opposite to the way they hang on a standing body. One shot to the arm, specifically, that grazed the interior, could have easily been fired while Brown had his back to the officer, corroborating witness accounts. If you watch the press conference, it’s all right there. The media just doesn’t do nuance very well and went all in on the first part of the sentence that all shots were in the front, without reporting the second part that it was to the front of an autopsy medical chart.
Damn you J Woods for making me go listen to the mop boy! I had to vomit a little bit in my mouth that Crump introduces mop boy as a professor. I take personal issue with that. I was really trying to avoid watching this as unlike Phaedra Parks, dead bodies are not my thing.
Dear God I had forgotten about how much Baden rambles. I should fine you some tokens for this Woods. 🙂 Did Baden just liken Brown to Charles Manson? In his rambling he says that the last time a president got involved in an autopsy was in the Charles Manson case. This is going to be funnier than the morbid viewing I thought it would be.
Oh now comes “Professor” of no college anywhere Mop Boy. Okay, Woods, you are correct Mop Boy did explain front and back before explaining the six shots. His discussion of the re-entry wounds is all over the place, making no sense, and then he says HE WILL NEED TO RELY ON THE FIRST AUTOPSY. Because he never had any training at all on this. Perhaps he could have asked Baden??? Mop Boy is an idiot.
Baden is up for questions. Are any of your findings inconsistent with witness statements? They could be or they could not be. There are a lot of possible scenarios. He then says there was no GSR on the body. DUH. Because it was washed before you got it. Oh JWoods, I am not sure I can make it through all 23 minutes of this. Then he says they did not have access to Dr. Case’s autopsy. Baden is talking about when the defense can have access to the clothing? Who is the defense? These people are all idiots. Oh, now he is correcting himself saying that the family should have access to the clothing at some point. Really? I can’t believe this is a real media event.
This is a shit show. Baden says that he has no idea if the findings match witness accounts or not. They need more information. Baden points out that toxicology and other testing can’t be done on any autopsy other than the first one. Crump has to drag Baden from the stage.
Alright J Woods, I am willing to concede based on the locations of the three lower shots to the arm that bullets could happen from either direction. Because the arm could have been in multiple positions running either toward or away from the officer. However the one to the upper arm, and two to the head are shot face to face. Dr. Case’s report will have more information regarding the trajectory of the bullets. Only three bullets were in the body. One of the arm wounds is called a graze as is the one to the hand. That leaves one more that exited the body (and did not re enter) So it looks like we have a good shot at an exit wound on one of the arm shots that could give us a trajectory that could show the position of the arm at the time it was shot.
Thanks JWoods for the comment.
You bet. Big fan of the blog, but slow to join the discussion. I’m shy. Gave up my press badge years ago and the media circus in all this is enough to remind me why and make me crrrrazzzzyyyyyy. Even more than the Housewives.
Thanks TT for enduring the 23 minutes again. It was well worth it (for us) for the extra info.
“Baden is talking about when the defense can have access to the clothing? Who is the defense?”
Interesting freudian slip. Baden usually testifies for defendants. In his mind, he may think he is defending Michael Brown (working for the defense). Crump couldnt wait to get him offstage.
Charles Manson… the defense… a lecture on how many black men are shot every day… and yes they had to drag him off the stage.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Good point and great observation.
Thank you for pointing this out.
It was my understanding also that Baden was not saying unequivocally that all the shots were fired from the front.
what i find interesting from this autopsy are the shots to the arm. if he was standing still 4 9mm bullets to the right arm should have spun him some. the video shows gentle mike facedown on the lines. that suggests forward momentum from the gentle giant.
I apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but which direction was Brown’s body facing toward when he was on the ground? I know he was faced down, but was he facing toward the cop’s vehicle or body facing away. To me, if Brown was coming back to the cop and was shot, his body should have fell towards the cop’s vehicle since he fell forward, face down.
facedown toward the cop.
Thank you. In my mind, it lends credibility that he was coming towards the cop.
Steve, if you shoot someone face to face, would the bullets make them fall backward unless there was some momentum going toward the gun?
face to face the bullet would push them the direction the bullet travelled. if he was still, and face to face the bullets should push him backward, or turn him since more on one side. if he was moving then his body mass carry that force the direction of his travel.
Steve or mrsgsp, how many bullets would it take to spin a 300 lb man, even when standing still? No, not a joke, along the lines of “how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?”
(Answer, only one, but it has to want to change…)
Thanks Steve. So it would seem he was moving toward the officer and began falling forward after the first or second gunshot wound to the head.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Even if he did spin, half-way, all the way or full pirouette, he turned toward the officer and charged. I don’t believe for a minute there was any spin (except by the media), Brown just kept coming. He may not have felt the shots at all. Adrenaline can block the initial impact.
if he was moving toward wilson when wilson fired, mikes body mass and momentum would counteract the push from the bullets, if he was still the bullet impacts would effect him. if only to lose a little balance. how he fell tells me he was moving toward wilson, when life left he fell flat, in the direction of wilson
I was watching one of those in-process car chases on the news that ended with him committing suicide. It was in real time and happened so quick and unexpected that the news didn’t have time to cut the picture.
Anyway, he fell forward after shooting himself in the head. I’m not sure if or how this applies to the discussion on which direction the body fell.
@observer i would have to see the tape, was it a comtact shot? was it to the temple or the mouth or under the chin? was he standing, or sitting or kneeling? suicide is different due to knowing whdre and when the shot takes place..alot of variables to consider. but with gentle mike it tells me he was moving toward wilson when he died
I’ll be honest, I haven’t been following this case. But when I saw Baden was involved with it, I had to give it a read.
First of all, I have to say that I first saw Baden when he was on the stand at the OJ trial. He was very intelligent, straight-forward and doesn’t try to hide anything, BUT I do have to say that the opposing attorneys have to ask him the right questions in order to get him to open up – because he offers no information that isn’t asked of him.
Secondly, in looking at the autopsy photo – it sure looks like there was movement going on when he was shot in order for him to have gotten shot where he did.
You’ll see what I mean if you just hold your hands up with a slight bend at the elbow.
1) It looks like the bullet entered and exited his armpit, then re-entered his pec or breast.
2) The graze on the hand looks like it could go with the shot to the top of his head.
But the rest of the “perforations” don’t appear to line up with his hands being held up, because of the trajectory. Also, with the wounds being on that side at that angle, could it be that he was turning as he was getting shot?
Just my opinion.
p.s. sorry for the lengthy comment.
we need to see where the blood drops in the road start, that will tell alot of the story. i have thought the palm wound was grabbing the gun if it went off in the car
Hey Steve, more dark humor please, It is very important to know if Wilson is right or left handed. That alone has a huge effect on how CSI views evidence.
Actually, knowing if the officer was left or right handed would be very interesting to me. If he was left handed the gun would have been very close to the passenger side door. If he was right handed Brown would have had to go all the way over him to grab it.
Let’s not get too chatty for chattings sake in her please.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
more important is mike, i am righthanded, when i fought i grabbed with the right and hit with my left..to start 😉 reread through the comments, i left a couple attempts at funny
Great thought Steve. I hadn’t thought about the blood drops, but you’re right that will definitely help tell the story.
TT I googled images of Wilson and the ones where he was recieving an award show the holster on how left hip. He is left handed. Also internet is saying he is a military veteran.
Since you are not following the case, I won’t explain your incorrect explantions of the gunshot wounds.
I must have forgotten his OJ testimony but every thing I have seen him do involves hours of bloviating.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:53 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
TT the actual shooting was probably over in about 4 seconds. mike was most likely moving towad Wilson and when he felt the bullets to his arm, especially the one tbat went through into the chest, mime lowered his head and thats when the eye and top of skull happened. however we are working from badens janitors work so its all speculation. i want the firzt REAL autopsy. that will shed much more light to this dark situation
Fair enough TT. I’ll hold off unless I start following this case.
That would be better than speculating without knows the facts. 🙂 I emailed you and no Tamara Tattles Tokens have been deducted from your account.
Yet…. #HairyEyeBall
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I’m in shock! Why the hell do go to school when we can just get hired to mop floors and clean up and become qualified without even taking a written exam. Exams as much a I hate them do give a license to practice….something! I have a degree in nursing (not like Kim) and am a RN. I have been a licensed Realtor/Broker since 1986 which required lots of classes. Both fields required yearly continuing education to maintain
a license. He thinks that he is equal to a PA? How dare he write such garbage! Show your license and save your bullshit!
Thank T for enlightening us once again. Love you girl….You really are the best!
. I am not a racist and the militarization of the police kinda freaks me out. Any thoughts ? Please only intelligent comments.
when people have access to assault rifles and some full automatic then yes the cops need the same or greater firepower. remember the hollywood bank robbers with body armor and machine guns? thank them for the militarization of police
Thank you!!
Oh it freaks me out too, Julie. And now with todays protests all over today …. It’s enough to make a girl double her stash of ammo and MREs and prepare to hunker down.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 8:35 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
My son, who is a competitive shooter, says that if the officer’s eye was messed up from getting punched, his site would be off and it might explain the shots pulling to the right and hitting Brown’s arm (police are not taught to clip the target, but shoot for the center/mass to take down/kill). The witness voice heard in that Youtube video said he thought the officer kept missing because Brown kept coming at him before the final head shots……
Just because the officer was still shooting and Brown was coming towards him, it does not mean he was missing. He just continued to shoot. Brown was going to fall eventually. It was over kill, IMO.
wilson didnt use a 9mm. he used a .40 calibur sig sauer. those have more impact and spread more, causing more damage
Came in late on this thread…..didn’t read all the detailed comments…before I added my two cents. Sorry people!
I have read on this blog that Baden is a media/forensic whore.
I have also read in other articles that the family called for Baden. Parcells asked to assist and Baden obliged.
If Baden is such a media/ forensic whore why would he allow someone else to steal his spotlight?
Moreover, Baden seems not just highly qualified but also a pretty decorated forensic pathologist. Even for a media whore.
Why would Baden allow an unqualified imitation to conduct an autopsy in his name?
Doesn’t sound right at all.
Because Baden probably hasn’t done an actual biopsy since the 1970s?
But if you believe that the family contacted Baden first, there is no need for me to fully answer your question.
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
At any rate, he is still a professional and
he was present during the autopsy. It is just not believable that someone with his credentials would allow someone to do a substandard autopsy – especially in his presence and then afterwards allow him to use his name as the person who actually performed it.
He may be a media whore but he’s not stupid.
I get your point about his age, but, being 80 doesn’t automatically render you inept, ineffective or senile.
One of my fiancés lawyers is 82years old and is still working 12 hour days and winning major cases and I have yet to hear him speak of slowing down!
I’ve heard Baden speak. He does not strike me as someone who needs to go home and retire to his rocking chair.
A professional what? Media whore? Yes. Forensic pathologist? no.
Please tell me one autopsy you are aware of that he has done? Let’s not go into how, but he was placed on a stupid house committee that should never have happened by some idiot who wanted a committee.
Can you show me his credential for that?
And more… why was he only a medical examiner for one year ?
remind me of his credentials again? Heads up… bogus shit for him being selected for the JKF thing not allowed.
I want to know how many autopsies he has actually done outside of his ONE YEAR EMPLOYMENT as a medical examiner.
I also want to know why he was only a medical examiner for ONE YEAR?
If these questions are too many. I’ll get back to you.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 2:37 AM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
@san d, baden signed his name to this report, he admits it is incomplete. what real info is contained in it? the only thing is how many wounds there were. does not contain trajectories and is inconclusive to say what happened. all this did was inflame an allready hot situation
I apologize for answering your last post to me here but, I was not able to reply under your post on my iPhone for some reason.
Ed Koch did not fire Baden because he was not an effective Pathologist. His reasons were that Baden did not work well with prosecutors. (hmmmm… Sounds like code for: he won’t say what we want him to.)
Moreover, Baden sued on grounds of wrongful termination and won. He was pushed out none the less.
Also, there are many who sing Baden’s praises just as there are many who criticize him.
He has been described as “someone the nation could trust, the kind of independent, yet lion-hearted expert needed to assist in a case where every outcome leads to controversy.”
“He is a great man,”
“Michael Baden gets up every day wanting to do good in the world. He can’t be bought. He can’t be convinced of the wrong story line. He is a pure scientist with a great heart.”
These are the words of his peers and professional associates who have worked with him.
There are always two sides.
Most if not all great men – and women for that matter have elements of controversy in their professional and personal life.
from his autopsy diagram can you tell which wound was an entry, or exit, or a reentry? NO. why didnt he label them instead of the generic “entry, rentry, exit wounds” at the top of the page. each wound drawn on that page should be identified which is which.
I dont think Baden knew of the baggage Parcells had.
I don’t think Baden at age 80 is really still all there. He’s like a great grandpa with stories that go back to the Manson days. He’s probably already forgotten about Spector and OJ…
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Howevet, Crump and Parcells, yes, Media Whores.
I hope you got your dog out Tam.
This Shawn Parcells character reminds me of a Dental Assistant who said she assisted with so many root canals she could do one herself except she isnt certified nor trained.
Of course, she would never do it, that is the difference.
I don’t know why Dr Bill Bass hasn’t been contacted to evaluate this autopsy. They crapped out on him during the Arias trial too.
Who is Dr. Bill Blass? Can his opinion be bought?
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:43 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Dr Bill Bass is a forensic genius who started the body farm for the University here where I live. I know you have enough to read and watch but if you ever have spare time for fun reading you should read the body farm series. Its right up your alley. And I apologize, it wasn’t the Arias trial that he got shit on it was Casey Anthony. I got my crazy bitches mixed up.
Oh I remember him now.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
And we’re supposed to trust the St. Louis Medical Examiner? If I was a Brown family member I wouldn’t. They most definitely need a neutral ME to conduct the autopsy.
why? please elaborate
You are not paying the least bit of attention are you?
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
She is 100% neutral. Her reputation and job depend on it.
If I were a member of the family, I wouldn’t trust Ms. Case because she works for the state. Plus, alot of Ferguson’s black residents have done interviews about the unfair treatment they received. My questions are…Are autopsies recorded? Was it possible for the independent ME to be present at the time Ms. Case performed her autopsy? I’m thinking that with both of them together while the autopsy is performed, there’s nothing to be suspicious of
God you’re an idiot, Kyla. The woman is a doctor. She has nothing to do with the police department. This is her job.
From Wikipedia: Following completion of medical school, Dr. Case began residencies in both pathology and neuropathology as a postdoctoral fellow at the National Institute of Neurological Disease and Stroke at her alma mater. Upon completion of this work in 1973, she began teaching pathology and was appointed a full professor in 1999.[1]
Dr. Case went on to become a consultant in neuropathology for St. John’s Mercy and St. Luke’s. In 1977, she became an assistant medical examiner of St. Louis County before becoming the chief ME of St. Louis, Jefferson, and Franklin counties in 1980.[1]
A member of many editorial review boards, Dr. Case has been a contributor to Archives of Internal Medicine, the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, and the Quarterly Child Abuse Medical Update. She is also a prominent member of the American Academy Forensic Sciences as well as the American Society of Clinical Pathology. She is also a board member of the National Association of Medical Examiners.[1]
Yet you would prefer the MOP BOY who lies about being a professor to be in her way while she works? That is beyond stupid.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
TT, not just being underfoot wouldnt having badens custodian in there create chain of evidence issues if/when the case went to court?
Yes. The whole concept is laughable. It seems the hatred goes beyond police to doctors now. Paranoia is everywhere. The government is out to get everyone. Oh, except Eric Holder. His government is trustworthy. It boggles the mind.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Number 1, I’m not an idiot and don’t appreciate being referred to as such! I could’ve called you an idiot for reporting that Dr. Baden said Brown was NOT shot from the back, but I chose not to. If you have the reading comprehension you say you do, you would’ve understood that “independent ME” meant Dr. Baden and not Mr. Parcell. Again, the community of Ferguson has been very clear about the fact that they DO NOT trust the government of Missouri. Because you can’t fathom any biased intentions in this situation doesn’t mean that there won’t be any. Lastly, please refrain from calling me names.
I’ll try to refrain. But you make it so easy.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Kyla, this is an autopsy and she is a county doctor. Do you think she will hide the body or say he wasnt shot?? Im trying to understand the fear….
Baden says the shot to the head could have been from back to front with no explanation of trajectory. Maybe because it wouldnt support the family’s case. However, Case may conclude that based on the trajectory, he was charging. Two different opinions however, you cant plant things in tissues that arent there. Or, hide bullet wounds…or alter bullet trajectories. This is science.
when this dr finds gunshot residue on mike when baden didnt will be what people will be screaming about
You mean on his hand?
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
Agreed, Steve. I think she is a professional and her report will be thorough. I think you may be right. The autopsy was vague and left a lot of questions unanswered…purposely.
Actually the family plumber’s autopsy was inconclusive and both the plumber and Baden said they would be relying on Dr. Case’s autopsy for additional information for things like trajectory. The also said THE Shots were all from the front. The only shots that COULD have come from the back are superficial. They have to wait for Dr. Case’s autopsy to make “their” final autopsy results.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
TT yeah on the hand. i should have said findings different than baden, but he didnt give many findings. kyla pointed out the mistrust so was just anticipating what the reaction will be
I have a question for all…..if you would care to ponder upon it. This is a thought provoking question. I know people get heated over Race issues. I was reading about the Phil Spector trial. Why did he get only 19 years for blowing a woman’s head off. He shot her in the mouth and her teeth were found scattered all over. Is it because he’s White and Rich? I mean why not se the Death Penalty for him too? I guess I just don’t understand. Is Justice just for Rich or White people? Jodis poor and Hispanic. OJ was rich and guilty and he walked away from the mayhem. By and large….the Racial Division is still far n wide. This isn’t a common occurrence . Hence, why people are enraged and looting. Its a symptom of horrible treatment by the Local powers that be. So, what I think is the looting needs to stop. The Whites in Furguson outnumber the people of color. All races were looting n causing havoc. When they kill someone they get the Minimal and not the Maximum. I’m no Jodi fan. I can see why she’s on Dp
I was with you until you said, “OJ was rich and guilty and he walked away from the mayhem. By an large…the racial division is still far and wide.” So it the system is based on color, OJ would be behind bars for his ex’s death..
I think you were on the right track originally – in that the legal eagles I watch pretty much agree that your outcome is based on your financial abilities to put a “dream team” together. Those pros are disgusted by it, but they all reluctantly agree.
Ugh, I wish there was an edit option.
1) By “and” large, and
2) “If” the system is based
“I have a question for all…..if you would care to ponder upon it. This is a thought provoking question. I know people get heated over Race issues. I was reading about the Phil Spector trial. Why did he get only 19 years for blowing a woman’s head off. He shot her in the mouth and her teeth were found scattered all over. Is it because he’s White and Rich? I mean why not se the Death Penalty for him too? ”
*I’m so confused why you think Mike Brown “got the death penalty.” There was no trial. Mike Brown died because he attacked a police officer and the officer defended himself, at least according to the account from his side which is not being broadcast. When you make the decision to flaunt an officer of the law, and reach into his vehicle and try to take his weapon, you put your life at risk. *
I guess I just don’t understand. Is Justice just for Rich or White people?
*In court, rich people usually get off. Yes. See OJ Simpson trial. *
Jodis poor and Hispanic. OJ was rich and guilty and he walked away from the mayhem. By and large….the Racial Division is still far n wide. This isn’t a common occurrence .
*You make no sense. Jodie should have gotten off because she is poor? This is ridiculous. *
Hence, why people are enraged and looting.
*Hence? Hence what? What in your mind justifies looting and burning the business owners who serve the community? How is this anyone’s fault for opening a business?*
Its a symptom of horrible treatment by the Local powers that be. So, what I think is the looting needs to stop.
*Perhaps the citizens need to remember this dude name Martin Luther King Jr. He never looted or burned down Woolworths and they were a store that was purposefully mistreating them. *
The Whites in Furguson outnumber the people of color.
*False. Ferguson is 67% black.*
All races were looting n causing havoc. When they kill someone they get the Minimal and not the Maximum.
*For the love of GAWD stop using the letter n in place or words. I’s annoying as shit. These two sentences don’t even make enough sense to address..*
I’m no Jodi fan. I can see why she’s on Dp
*What in the holy motherfuck does Jodi Arias have to do with this conversation? Nothing. That is what. *
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
I commented here. Because the Racial divide is prolific throughout this case and many others. Anyway, its om my phn and hard to correct from a cell. I mean clearly the Lana Woman was probably begging for her life. Why wouldn’t that be considered DP worthy. Do people only get over on the system if they can pay their way out of it? Why was Casey Anthony not put behind bars for murdering her own little girl? Is it because she’s White? Pretty? Will Jodi walk because Nurmi refuses to help her now as the lead DP Attorney. I can clearly see the differences. But, I’m jist trying to look at the overall picture of things. My last thought is….Things will NOT change until People learn to come together and work through it. Were all one HUMAN family. We bleed the same. Most if not all believe in God etc. We pray and laugh and have fun and cry as any other Human being does….We have to stop the division. It just keeps people incarcerated. The jails n Prisons are chock full of Minorities. Some of them deserve to be there. SOME do not. I could go on and on. With questions and thoughts, but I will end my thoughts n questions here. We have too look at our own selves and address our own issues before we can fix the bigger issues. I think its worth the effort.
Jodi will NEVER walk. She was already found guilty of first degree, pre-meditated murder in an especially cruel way. Kurt Nurmi does not refuse to help her. Jodi refuses help from people who don’t see it her way. The state of Arizona spent how many MILLIONS of dollars and years on her defense??? She didn’t pay for any of that. The judge has bent over backwards ruling in her favor while Jodi has played every trick in the book to prolong this trial. She murdered Travis in 2008 and she still hasn’t been sentenced.
In Jodi’s case being poor and half-Hispanic has worked in her favor imo, although she never used the race card that I know of.
Can Jodis case be overturned at this point? I don’t know. Its a valid question. It costs the Taxpayers 1.7 Million dollars thus far and they’re not done yet. Ted Bundy deserved the death penalty. I wonder how much money was wasted for killing all of those Women? How long did that trial and appeals go on? I don’t have the answers. I’m just thinking the system is flawed. Anyone can skew information. Where you will proba ly find some kind of teuth is in the Statistics. We tend to seek harsher punishments for the people of color?
Do you think that Jodi ‘s conviction for cold-blooded capital murder should be overturned because she costs too much? What price do set on the murder victim’s life? Do you want a cost per victim breakdown when you mention Ted Bundy? Harsher punishments for people of color???? Ted Bundy was white and he was executed. Can’t think of a harsher punishment than that…
Jen are you medicated? This comment makes absolutely no sense. This post is about an autopsy and you are rambling about I have no idea what.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
okay, even though reading through your comments no one shares my opinion I will just take you at your word that you encourage open and honest debate. Has anyone proven definitively that this kid robbed the store in question ? If the answer is yes, is the penalty for stealing cigarettes the death penalty ? If the answer is yes, is that by a jury of peers or a cop on the street? You have every right to feel the way you feel about this case. Why is it so hard to believe a rogue cop shot a kid down just because he felt like it ? I have read op-ed pieces in Vanity fair, New Yorker, Atlantic monthly all railing against the police actions. Are you aware that there are 6 monks as well as a 90 year old holocaust survivor that have traveled to Ferguson to join the protests? The co founder of twitter has been live tweeting from Ferguson at @jack. Rand Paul wrote a piece in which he said he would have at the very least mouthed off at 18 if an officer told him to get on the sidewalk. He also knows he would not have run the risk of losing his life for it Stop blaming the victim. There is no justification for what happened that day..
Jeaninne: Guess you missed the bit about Brown inflicting grevious bodily harm on the police officer who wasn’t expecting that kind of assault for asking Brown to remove himself from the middle of the street so he wouldn’t be run over or block traffic. Then the officer was charged by Brown with intent. Self defense on part of the officer.
As to the 6 monks and a holocaust survivor joining the protest doesn’t mean anything, except they have bought into the media frenzy. Doesn’t mean they are any smarter than everybody else. Just because they have joined proves something? I think not. Use some logic.
So from now on, all anyone needs are 6 monks and a holocaust survivor. No more Grand Juries, or lawyers or trials or testimony. All you need to do is find 6 momks and a holocaust survivor?
What happens when you run out of holocaust survivors? Who would you select to be the next harbingers of truth?
Sounds like a joke, 6 monks and a holocaust survivor walk into a bar….
I don’t even think those WERE monks.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Tamara Tattles wrote:
>
girl bye
Jen, IMHO, the poor in this country get the gavel more often than not because they end up with overworked and underpaid public defenders. Also, it seems that guilty verdicts are determined by race and wealth, i.e., black-on-black (little prison time), black-on-white (lots of prison time), white-on-white (little time), white-on-black (least amount of time). Clout plays a major role also, i.e., daddy knows somebody at the courthouse or mama works for a politician. Judges are just as bad. I used to say, if I had to go to trial, I’d rather face a judge than a jury. Not anymore because the judges aren’t even impartial anymore. The whole system needs to be overhauled