The jury as requested an inventory list of all the evidence in the case. The clerk is working up the list and the court is in a brief recess. Story Developing…
If the jury is asking for an inventory of all the exhibits. To me this means after two hours they are beginning to go through all of the evidence which would lead me to believe that if they did an initial vote, it was not unanimously not guilty. This may just mean that they want to see something. They may want the animation (which they cannot get) they apparently want the list of everything they can request to see.
Meanwhile outside, people are beginning to show up in the designated protest area.
That last sentence is scary. I hope they cannot look out the window and see that.
I would hope that the jurors are using the evidence to eliminate second degree, and then to eliminate manslaughter.
I honestly thought they would take an intial vote just to get an idea of where everyone is… and everyone would say they had reasonable doubt due to lack of evidence and say, okay let’s go home. Though in this case I think they know that if they did that some would feel like we did after Casey Antony and say they just wanted to go home and didn’t care.
when i was on a jury i was unhappy that we took that initial vote against the judge’s instrux. thought we were to discuss the evidence first (including what we might need or have questions about) and come to a conclusion together. insight from a prior jury member, fwiw.
Interesting. I have never been on a jury. I figured first you pick a foreman and then you do a written anonymous vote at first, perhaps with an option for not sure yet…if you get back all guilty or not guilty then you go home.
I had no idea a judge might say not to do that.
Meanwhile the jury is going back to the hotel for the evening and they will comeback at 9 am to begin deliberrations.
people bring their prejudices right into the room, based on our initial vote and discussion. worrisome. i was terrified of doing the wrong thing and would err heavily on the side of reasonable doubt but we split decidedly along racial/economic lines at first. problem always is all the info we’re blocked from knowing, too. always a bit of a crapshoot.
TT – Didn’t one of the speaking Jurors in the Jodi Arias trial say they took a “straw vote” AFTER they first came together and prayed for guidence ? I think it would be natural curiosity – but yes, I have heard of Judges who will discourage it, perhaps to eliminate pretense before the facts ?
maybe they want to find the different versions of GZs statements to compare
good thought, Steve……………see if there are any major discrepancies that concur with prosecution argument
Jury adjourned for the night at 6 PM.
TT, question: The HLN screamers are stating that the jury was read the SYG law in the instructions? Does that help or hurt GZ?
There is not “Stand Your Ground Law” There is a reasonable use of force law. This is the part of the Reasonable Use of Force statue that applies to self defense (not in your own home):
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Well lookie there! It says stand your ground! ERGO! This is a stand your ground trial! WRONG! There is NO SUCH THING AS A STAND YOUR GROUND TRIAL. If you claiming SYG rather than Self-Defense, you have a HEARING with a JUDGE and say, hey judge, I was just standing my ground. That’s not a crime. Please drop the charges. If they agree your case is a SYG case. You go home to your dog and charges are dropped and there is no trial.
George waived his right to a SYG hearing and went for a jury trial with a self defense defense.. WHICH IS WHY THIS IS NOT A STAND YOUR GROUND CASE despite what you may hear on Howling Ladies Network. This is a self defense case. Part of the statue related to self-defense has to do with REASONABLE FORCE and includes the words Stand your ground.
OR IF YOU FOUND ALL THAT TL;DR the answer is reading the definition of reasonable force is what happens in a self-defense case just like all the other jury instructions.
I remembered you telling us several times it was not a SYG case, that’s why I could not understand why JVM was pointing out that it was in the jury instructions. She kept trying to get everyone to talk about it, they kinda blew her off.
I read that O’Mara said he did not have time to prepare for SYG as he came into the case so late.
I can’t understand why the reporters keep talking about SYG as it’s a moot point.
TT- thanks for explaining this. I had no idea he waived his SYG defense and is going under “reasonable force” statute which includes that language. No one reports on these differences, which make all the difference.
I would never go for a trial by judge before Judge Nelson.
I thought the whole closing arguments by both were not good. I expected better from MOM and Guy just threw stuff out and said poor little boy and the big bad wolf. When I werver on the murder jury with a black/white angle with hurt feelings, the 1st thing we did in the jury room was to vote. We just wanted to see where we were. The judge did not tell us not to do that. We did ask to hear a tape we heard in court and the judge said no. I wrote a note back and said it’s evidence and we want to hear it. We were allowed to hear it 1 X and then no more. I learned after that the lawyers threw down in court. Neither group of lawyers wanted us to hear the tape. For all we know, they’ll come back tomorrow and fill out the forms and be done. We all guessed all over the place during JA trial.
After hearing the gist of Guy’s argument, same old same old, lies, lies, lies, child vs man, yadda, yadda, yadda, the jury has to sort through it all. If I were on that jury, I too, would want to review the evidence to make sure that John Guy wasn’t selling me the same old load of crap in a different package. I would take the evidence and stack it up against what prosecution was telling me, and what defense is telling me.
John Guy’s closing was so much more of the “been there, got that, got anything new?”
I did not find his closing argument had any weight towards conviction. Just more inflammatory emotions. And I tried, I really did.
Oh sure. Nows the time not be prejudice. Ha!
What happens in a *stand your ground hearing* if the judge decides against you? Do you then go to a trial? Are you locked into the facts presented before the judge?
John Guy’s argument contradicting all the facts entered into evidence!
And even after all that, McSmarmy STILL DID NOT PROVE THE STATE’S CASE!!
Can we all agree that George Zimmerman is a thug and we’d all be safer if he were in jail? Excellent. I thought we could.
Snore….zzzzzzz
Yes, you bore me as well. In fact, I have yet to read an original or interesting thought you’ve had. But it doesn’t stop you from typing away. As with most people with absolutely nothing to say. 🙂
Crickets
😡
And that is not a sad face. I have perfected the pendejo / kiss my ass icon!!
Colon
Equal sign
Little x
Voila!!
And that is why I enjoy typing…simply counting how long it takes for you to reply. Ding-ding-ding-ding!!! NAA wins the record on how short a time period to respond. She has dethroned Jan!
GAY GASP!!!
Back off NAA as there are a lot of us who enjoy Puravida and look forward to debate, conversation and sharing opinions with her – you not so much. Grow up and have a discussion but if you are going to put our inflammatory statements own the responses you will get.
:=x
I do not think he is a thug, I think he is a frightened bully, like many cops or wanna be cops.
If George goes to jail, Imma RIOT, y’all. I may knock over a Tiffany’s to display my outrage at the verdict. No Justice! No Peace! Mama needs a new gold bangle!
Yea. Im officially done with this website
:=x
Its in the juries hands now so live with whatever verdict they find and hope we dont have to do another like this one again. 🙂
whatever happens, i would hope there may be many positive outcomes. Such as cops doing a much better handling of evidence, neighborhood watch groups creating better and safer ways to help one another, neighborhoods collectively working toward helping to keep themselves safer by virtue of lighting, etc. HOA’s opening the door so police will patrol and react, etc more easily. Better handling of evidence, etc
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/jul/12/judicial-watch/judicial-watch-says-department-justice-unit-organi/
Cases like this go on everyday. This one was politicised and the news networks need to get people in front of the tv during the slow summer season.
Hi fellow trial watchers, I have missed the closing arguments and from what I am reading no one was carried away with either the prosecution or the defense closing arguments. I could hardly believe the prosecution asked for 3rd degree murder. I had no idea that even existed. Made the prosecution seem even more ‘grasping for straws’!
Thanks all of you for your prayers and concern. My daughter is doing fine, though had a very hard delivery. The epidural never took affect so she basically had natural birth! So much pain and I felt so helpless! That was stressful enough but the doctor told us, since she was delivering so early, the baby may not be breathing when born! There was no sound from the baby for a few seconds, though it seemed so much longer, then he whimpered a few times, started to cry, then was yelling at the top of his lungs! Thank the Lord! The baby is still in NICU with a bit of a breathing problem which may be caused from the blood pressure medication given intravenously when she was admitted into the hospital. My daughter goes home today but not sure baby will. I can hardly wait to hold him.
Good news Rose! Prayers continue for you and yours.
Rose, congratulations on the birth of your new grandson! Glad to hear your daughter is doing well also. If the baby has to stay, he’s in a good place with doctors and nurses that can take excellent care of him. My first was a premie, almost 2 months, he had to stay almost 2 weeks after I was discharged. He will be 30 this year, big strong strapping guy, nobody would guess than he weighed less than 5 pounds!
Kitty, we are very thankful for the good care he is getting. My daughter understands the hospital is the very best place for him but her hubby wants to pack him up and take him home! Men!
Thanks for you sharing about your premie son and that he is now a bit, strong, strapping guy. I keep telling my daughter though the baby is tiny now, he will catch up. I’ll tell her about your son as I know that will encourage her.
Rose congrats on the new grandson. I just had my first great-grandson and I can attest they are all great! I only weighedd 3 lbs. in the day they didn’t have all the support they have now (67 years ago). Only time in my life I have ever been underweight 🙂
Congrats Rose, so happy for you and your family!
Welcome back, Rose. I told you that I believe in miracles and so glad y’all got one. My best to you all.
Welcome back Rose! So happy to hear your daughter and grand baby are okay.
Hey Rose, So glad you are back with happy news! I was 2 months premature at 3 1/2 lbs. So far so good! No health or developmental/learning issues 57 years later. Will keep your new grandson in my prayers. I was also kept at hosp for two weeks after being born. What is his name? Get some sleep!
Congratulations to new mama and grandma. Things will only get better from here and you will be holding him soon
Rose..the pros. want the jury to think about how they would feel about a man following them or THEIR kid at night in the rain.(perv?). They also played the many taped statements by GZ showing how his story changes. The def. did get to show animation video but that doesnt show GZ pulling his gun..changes to oppisiye side view. But animation supports pros. claim that GZ GUN WAS UNDER GZ and behind TMs leg. I still think this a manslaughter case. Glad to hear daughter and baby are doing ok.
Steve, I wondered if the animation was going to be played for the jurors. Sounds as though it did not help the defense, though. I think it is possible that the jurors will see manslaughter as a sort of middle ground. Listening to the chatter from others discussing the jurors it sounds to me as though it’s very possible, if they are correct, that it will result in a hung jury.
Thanks, Doc, for the continued prayer
Rose, the animation was played, but they can’t take in as evidence. It was a very broken animation, showing the point of the first contact, skipped to the second contact outside Mr. Good’s home on the sidewalk and then the third point of the gunshot. Not a fluid presentation, but I thought it was excellent for what it was.
Someone shared an article on FB that said if GZ is found not guilty, there is a possibility of federal charges being brought against him for a hate crime and violating TM’s civil rights.
Anyway, I read a couple of articles that said Jay Carney was asked if the DOJ was watching the outcome of the trial and he said he didn’t know. Reporters have reached out to the DOJ asking if federal charges could possibly be brought against GZ but have received no response.
TT, or anyone, have you ever heard of anything like this happening? I suppose it would not be double jeopardy if he was not tried for TM’s death.
No. It’s ridiculous grabbing at straws. The federal government has already gotten involved which is why this trial occurred in the first place. A ruling of self-defense is a complete defense. This is a self-defense case in the state of Florida. The federal government has no legal standing.
TT – I believe Civil Rights violation laws may fall under another jurisdiction and are/can be seperate from a criminal case. – I do think one can be charged for CR violations, regardless of their standing in criminal court. The Justice Ctr. has a website with some general info. ~ I’ll check it out.
Please do. But no need to post it once you figure it out.
Please post it.
smitsa… I posted it below in bold….
it just sucks that so many people will turn whatever verdict is reached into an excuse to cause more trouble. I always try to use these trials as a learning experience. guilty/not guilty GZs life will never be the same again.
not to mention that there will likely be a civil suit in near future………….hope not, i wish for GZ a NG (and i don’t mean Nancy Grace) and the opportunity to leave this country, where he will be a hunted man (at the ripe age of 29?). But if NG, i feel certain that his time in court is not near over. Remember OJ….
That is so true, Steve. I couldn’t help but think as I read those article that if this is true and federal charges can/will be brought against him, GZ can’t win either way. Yep, no way his life will never be the same again.
This is really only the second trial I have ever followed. I’m not sure my learning experience has been positive but I do enjoy chatting with everyone here.
In my imagination the jury had one hold out last night . They requested the evidence list to try and prove something to her. When that didn’t work quickly they decided to sleep on it and start fresh today. I’m guessing they will have something by this evening.
Bendy, GZ did wonder why no one helped him. I wondered that myself as it was reported that several people saw and watched what was going on. If someone would have come to his aid or TM’s aid and broke up the fight before the weapon was drawn, TM would still be alive. We are living in sad times when no one wants to get involved or help another.
Rose, I believe that no one helped because no one knew who the aggressor was. Two people fighting in the dark out in front of my house w/screaming means call the police, not go outside and get involved, and that’s what they did. To some extent, Trayvon is dead because someone (George) got involved. Unless you saw the entire incident, how would know which one to help..?
I don’t really think no one coming to help or pulling them apart had anything whatsoever to do with who was or was not the aggressor. People just don’t get involved anymore. And maybe that’s not a fair statement as, perhaps people in that neighborhood were more sensitive at that time because of the recent break in.
That said, I would have called the police, as well. I was just stating that he testified that he had asked a neighbor to help him subdue TM.
Bendy, do you have an opinion on which juror might have been a hold out? And an opinion leaning which way?
If it’s a hold out for NG then I pick the college age woman, I have no reason for this. If it’s for 2nd/manslaughter I pick the organized one (was she an accountant?) because I think she would be weighing everything and it not adding up to guilty.
But that’s my personal bias showing.
my gut says that, despite all the weaknesses of prosecution’s case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, etc…………….that those women are having the same discussion polarity of most everyone else:
A. self-defense
B shouldn’t have gotten out of the car
SAD
lots of lessons here..if you are neighborhood watch call and report dont follow. If some creepy guy is following you dont call your girl. call cops or at least an adult. If from either side you feel fear stay away dont approach. Police need to do better crime scene evidence collection. Tox tests on ALL parties involved. Too many little changes could have prevented this from happening. Both were at fault to some degree in this case..thats why i say manslaughter NOT 2nd deg. murder
Dated July 13, 2013 from Examiner.com
Edited to remove Examiner.com as a legitimate source of information. ~TT
I think someone mentioned here that GZ’s grandfather was black. I found that article and it also mentioned he mentored a couple of African American children who lived in dangerous neighborhoods, risking his own safety.
Perhaps that is when he got the gun! Just a thought…
Rose..thanks for that, its nice to know somebody in govt. actually has a brain. I know its not illeagal for GZ to get out and watch to see what TM was doing, but do you ever think that late at night waiting to sleep GZ thinks *WHY did i get out of the car?*
I’m sure he does. He is probably also thinking *Why did that guy have to beat me?* and *Why didn’t anybody come when I screamed for help?*
Steve, I’ll bet GZ has asked himself that a million times and replayed it all in his mind over and over and may do so for the rest of his life. You do learn a lot from watching trials, don’t you? Maybe others that have watched the trial have learned some valuable lessons, as well.
Bendy if GZ was screaming why did he stop RIGHT when the gun went off? GZ said he didnt know TM was shot climbed on him to control him but was in fear for his life. He didnt call for more help to keep that kid down.
Because he didn’t need help anymore.
Bendy, GZ did say he asked one of the neighbors to help him detain TM. I believe his testimony was the first cop on the scene came up seconds later. Remember he had already called for police to meet him there.
Well, I have been around a gun when it was fired. I have even fired guns before and I can tell you the sound alone will stop all other noise instantly. It’s a shock and intake of breath for me and I suppose it could also be that way for GZ.
Once the gun was fired, in my imagination of what was going on in GZ’s mind, TM knew GZ now had the upper hand. I think he even said as much, TM saying “you got it” meaning GZ got to the gun first. That makes sense to me that GZ then assumed TM gave up even thought he wasn’t sure if he had even shot him.
As Rose said, GZ gave a statement under oath that he asked John Good to help restrain TM and asked someone to call the police.
Now if this is the statement GZ gave police and it works in my mind I have reasonable doubt that GZ committed a crime.
Please do not post “Things you heard on Facebook” or posts from Examiner.com here during the verdict watch. There is a lot of inflammatory information floating around while people are bored and waiting for the verdict. Let’s not stir the pot with gossip during a time where everyone is already tense about the verdict.
Also, let’s try not to wander off into personal discussions. A lot of people here work on Saturday and are checking here for news on what is going on when they get a minute. Thanks!
or it was the teen screaming. There are conflicting statements either way for the scream. Dont make sense that if you are in fear, didnt know you killed the cause of that fear, and just decide you dont need any help after all. The instant the gun goes off. Makes more sense that the scream ending at same time as gunshot is that the screamer was the one shot.
but he did ask for help.
Steve, have you been able to watch trial replay (in full segments) on youtube? Prosecution had TM mom and brother say his voice on 911. The woman with 911 tape said she thought it was the younger person screaming, not based on knowing either guys. The woman who testified that she thought GZ was on top when screams went on admitted that her testimony was based upon seeing only the younger TM pics in media, etc………she therefore was nullified or essentially corrected when shown actually size of TM at the time of shooting. There were, let’s see…..uncle, mom, dad, 3 co-workers, two friends, one friend, i also think trainer, and a neighbor who all testified that voice was GZ. (did i leave anyone out?) If prosecution had more voice id’s they sure screwed up not using them (since it IS their burden). Same holds for this entire “vigilante” accusation…..where are the witnesses???? Just the facts, man.
TT, you are probably going to need to appprove this post. I think I am posting information but I absolutely don’t want to inflame others. If you see a black screen on a fb friend’s post, this is in support of a conviction of GZ. Also, I just read an article from the Sanford police saying they are setting up 2 free speech zones for protesters and the many churches that are open for prayer. Silly me, I thought the 1st Amendment gave us free speech on every corner and every place inbetween. I read that Angela Corey fired Ben Kruidbos yesterday who is the whistleblower from the prosecutor’s office that was in charge of their IT department and told the defense that TM’s phone had been scrubbed of photos and messages about maryjane and guns. I haven’t said this in the trial but I always stop anyone in my neighborhood who I don’t recognize and ask them if I can help them. Since I am disabled, I am at home while others are at work. This was an awful tragedy for both families. I do not believe that GZ intended evil. Oh, I do not have a gun so that may be why my questions of strangers works out with either a ‘No mam’ or ‘Yes mam, I’m looking for…’ when I accost strangers in my hood.
ahhhhhhhh Peach, but they don’t know if you have a carry-conceal permit..
Angela Corey fired Ben Kruidbos for testifying truthfully while under oath about the prosecution wiping Trayvon’s phone and not giving evidence to the defense (his texts and photos about violence, buying a gun and drug use). THAT is what should be causing a civil rights case.
no lie…………i have watching the june 6 hearing and DLR is one nasty guy! i get this feel of an intensely corrupt office from his words and tone toward Kruidbos!
BDLR reminds me of the cheap cut-rate lawyers who have an office above the Chinese restaurant.
I can’t imagine anyone with a brain considering the “shouldn’t have gotten out of the car crap.” The whole reason he called the police was to report suspicious behavior. Why do people think the neighborhood watch guy should just sit there twiddling his thumbs waiting for the police, but all the neighbors should have run out of their house to stop a violent confrontation?
i agree with your asessment…………i daresay, had i lived there, if i had a hose, i would likely have gone out there with hose on full blast and my bigger dogs and screamed at them to stop…………….
I agree with you but if GZ is convicted that will be the reason why.
That is why the prosecution and judge fought against the jury instructions having a sentence in there that said “following someone is not against the law.” They knew if that was in there would be no way the jury could convict GZ for anything.
LIKE INFINITY.
LOL Isabella! (><) (my infinity symbol)
The neighborhood watch guy should call the police and then let the trained police confront who ever the person is unless there is some sort of emergency and the watch person is helping to save a life. Zimmerman had a gun and no training and yet like many people with guns they think they can handle everything until something goes horribly wrong. I moved from my hometown because of the violence that took my nephew who was walking down the street minding his own business. I wish a neighborhood watch person had gotten the license plate of the car full of gangbangers that killed my brother’s child but not at the risk of putting their own life in danger. What if Martin had had a gun his own with someone confronting him on a dark rainy night? What if Martin had been an actual criminal up to no good then Zimmerman would have never gotten a chance to kill him.
What if wishes were fishes….
We have plenty of police to check out problems and in Chicago we have plenty of police who will shoot first and explain after. The police just killed a 15 year old who had a gun of his own and no one can say a word. Like I said before it Zimmerman had been black and he had killed a white boy this whole conversation would be mute. Maybe down south you all just see things differently and this entire conversation is a waste of time. Minds are made up and the chips will fall where they may when the jury reaches their conclusion.
If Zimmerman had been black this whole thing would not be happening either.
Tamara, I’ve been rocking with you for a while, but your an idiot. From the Paula Deen situation to this, your entire view on race is skewed. I’m not sure what race you actually are, but there’s no way you are actually in touch with what goes on with racial profiling or bigotry in general. I’m done with your website. I’m sure that’s no loss to you, but you really need to gain a better understanding of things that go on in this country everyday. If this man had not gotten out of his vehicle that kid would still be alive. He was posing no threat to him in his car. He confronted the kid because he was over zealous. He ignored what the operator instructed him to do. So everything that transpired is on him. I’ve been in different neighborhoods with my black friends and have gotten pulled over just so the cops can see why we were in that area, and was told to go back home where we came from. It happens everyday. That bastard had no right to get out and question a MINOR. He was not the police although he wanted to be one so bad. Please get some understanding, because I was a fan until you started speaking on things you really have NO IDEA about. You take care, and good luck catering to your new core of readers.
Victori0us, I actually hate to see you go. It’s sad that you feel you must leave based on a disagreement over a court case. I have researched and given tons of FACTUAL information her based on the law. This includes explaining in detail the state’s burden of proof and sentencing statutes.
It seem to me those who are arguing for a guilty verdict are arguing from a place of emotion. “That bastard should never have gotten out of the car” for example. Patroling your neighborhood with a concealed weapon is not a crime. Neither is following someone. A dispatch operator cannot command someone to do something, and did not. He merely suggested that following him would not be a good Idea. GZ STOPPED following at that point. (even though he was not required to do so and continued to plea for police assistance). There is no evidence that George ever got the chance to question Travyon but if he had been able to that is absolutely his right. I question children all the time when they wander into the yard of the empty house next door. Minors especially need to be questioned about their behavior.
I have to say I know more about the case than you do if you are unaware of all of these FACTS.
Oh, and it’s “You’re an idiot”
Queen Vic, too bad you can’t tolerate or interact and share with others who think or feel differently than you do. My experience in life is that unstable grounding tends to make people move I suspect TT may be disappointed that some of her peeps have much more closed minds than she thought. Of course, this is just me and “in no way reflects the owner and operator of this blog” Peace-out
Victorius: Bless your heart, it is sad that you must resort to name calling because you disagree with opinions expressed here. Tamara is certainly no idiot, as I suspect you already know or you wouldn’t have been “rocking” with TT at all.Calling names and then going off in a huff is not very mature so it is best that you leave. You need your big girl panties to rock with this group.
The people who killed my nephew were black. The vast majority of crimes committed on one another are by people of same race.
(i think i’m out of the corner, briefly -potty break-……then back in, be it out of my own accord or necessity..) Interesting wicked, that you say this. I have been thinking alot and trying to understand how people are feeling re: racism.
So i began to wonder, if i were in quiet and dark neighborhood and followed by a man, which would i be most concerned about : 1) hispanic 2) AA 3) caucasian.
For me it would be a caucasian man. (kinda of mostly what “race” people would put me into. ) My reasons, if they matter are totally based on experience. I can scold hispanic, sweet momma-talk AA (they tend to respect their mom’s tremendously in my experience)……but the white guy????? he wants rape or rob or worse (and these days, rape pretty unlikely for me)
just saying
Holy cow, what a great point! As women, we fear rape more than death, and yeah, we that would be our most natural inclination, we are about to be raped, not murdered. Men are more territorial so they would fear death more. What an awesome observation.
lwickedgirl. What exactly is your point.
Great comment Doc.
Please do not falsely accuse southerners of a racism that you do not know exists. I have stated before that in little county we, people of all races, work together on the big problems that face all communities like a high school drop out rate and teenage pregnancies. We basically just all get along. I am deeply offended by your ‘ISM’ regarding me and my home. Just for your info, we in the south do NOT consider Florida to be part of the south. We actually believe it is a piece of NY that drifted down and attached to us. To my Fl. friends blogging here, please don’t get mad at me for a little joke.
Hey Peach, we call em Snowbirds
So true, Peach.
Florida is as racist towards blacks as Arizona is racist towards Hispanics. The proof is in the pudding.
Smitsap I was replying to another post concerning the question what if Zimmerman had been black and Martin had been white. Because it is a black and white case many people are up in arms but most crimes are committed within their own particular race. White victimize whites by and large, Hispanics will do each other in and blacks will gun down each other. I am married to a Chinese chick so I know the Asian community, quiet as they keep it, will exploit the hell out of one another. Asians just hide everything because no one wants to show a bad face to the world.
wicked, can you clarify gun laws in Chicago…………i thought people could not own guns………..or is it concealed??
We have strict gun laws in Chicago but those who want to carry them into the city do so with little impunity. We have a drug war in Chicago with gangs fighting over turf. These gangsters don’t register their guns, they just buy them on the streets and go around murdering people. It is the law abiding citizens who watch what the law says. IL. just passed a right to carry concealed weapons so now we will have even more guns on the street. It is a horrible mess out here and that is why I moved to the far far suburban outskirts of Chicago where my son can play outside with out risking a stray bullet. There are no crack pipes in my yard, just the odd praying mantis and lots of rabbits. My neighbor has horses and there are corn fields within sight of my balcony. Call me a chicken but I got the heck out of that madness.
dear Lord, how incredibly terrible for people who can’t get out…………..how can others help? Are there groups who are trying to constructively improve……….or, rather, who is helping to make a difference?? (glad you and your family got out)
The stand your ground law would actually apply more to Trayvon if you think about it. I’d also love to hear the definition of this “suspicious behavior” that inspired George Zimmerman to get out of his car carrying a gun with a bullet in the chamber. Was there a neighborhood rule that if anyone had their children visiting they had to report in to George Zimmerman? I’m sure he would have preferred it that way, but his delusions of grandeur could really only go so far. But face it. Everything in little georgie’s life led up to this culminating moment. His opportunity to be Charles Bronson finally presented itself. He just somehow imagined it would be followed by a ticker tape parade instead of a trial. Who knows, maybe he’ll still get that parade, though. It is, after all, Florida. And yeah, the prosecutor did a shit-tastic job, but the fact remains that he followed someone with a loaded weapon for doing nothing more suspicious than being young and black in Officer Wannabe George’s neighborhood. That “suspicious behavior” that everyone is resting on might be hard for the jury to swallow, and no matter how crappy the case was, everything rested on whether or not you believe George had any business grabbing that gun and heading out into the wild wild east.
Once more with feeling. This is not a STAND YOUR GROUND CASE. SYG is decided by a hearing.
The suspicious behavior involves wandering for forty minutes after leaving he 7-ll in the rain. Walking in between houses and not using the nearby sidewalk.
Guns carried for self-defense of the type that George carried are designed to be carried hot. That is the whole point of a self-defense weapon. To keep it ready to use quickly.
You certainly do have a lot of assumptions about George’s character with absolutely no evidence to support your bias.
how do you know that Trayvon didn’t assault GZ? Maybe Trayvon instigated the entire fight between the two. Maybe GZ didn’t have enough time to explain himself because Trayvon decided to beat on him for following him. We don’t know. The story that his female friend (on the phone w/TM) told about the entire incident is complete BS in my opinion, and if you ignore her testimony (as I would) you have no evidence to convict GZ of anything.
It’s very sad and very tragic that Trayvon died, but putting GZ in prison for 30 years won’t change it, and would be equally sad and tragic if he did nothing wrong. I am predicting that he will be convicted because the 6 white ladies will be too scared to do anything else. I think they will use the “compromise” verdict of manslaughter, to appease the public and the prosecution, who did nothing but alternately holler at them and beg them to convict on sympathy in their closing.
I think this trial was not about the truth – it was about closing this tinder box of a case for the state.
i go for HUNG…………….there is NO way i would concede any charges, feeling self-defense is correct. NO WAY
What happens next if they get a hung jury?
retry or plea……………..no way he will plea……………….
MAYBE or PERHAPS is not a defense or an excuse for either side. This is getting ridiculous with all the assumptions. If there were more facts you can be sure they would be out there.
but Isabella, GZ’s head and nose are for real (and TM’s only injuries were left hand abrasion and GSW) and John Good was highly credible witness…………then there’s that 4 minutes to flee for TM…….i feel there is evidence that the physical altercation was started by TM and he had GZ in a position where he did genuinely fear. GZ’s defense #1: scream for help; NO HELP
The prosecution does not have to retry. They can decide not to. It depends how much longer they want to be under the spotlight. Whatever they decide, people will not like it. If Angela Corey still has any authority, she will forge ahead.
I agree, I think TM instigated this but there is no proof to say either way. If it were two black men, two white men, two Hispanic, whatever, we would not even be talking about this. It has crossed over from a tragic death to Rodney King outrage. We know all about GZ, all his faults and foibles but TM is the sacred cow here, nope, cannot say a negative word or you are a racist. If having an opinion makes me a racist so be it.
based on testimony and evidence i am color-blind…………i think you are, too
THANK YOU, I agree but I am afraid to say anything that steers away from what is expected for fear people will begin to think there are white robes hidden in my closet.
Might i, gently, just say: FUCK WHAT THEY THINK “To thine own self be true” It is much easier to live in sincerity than to try to please others for fear of what they might judge about you.
Isabella-you don’t mind the assumptions made about GZ? They are charging him with having HATE in his heart for black people as a motive for shooting Trayvon. That’s a pretty big assumption right there, and one that is very hard to prove wrong.
It’s not at all hard to prove wrong. See my bolded post and click the first link. It shows that an FBI investigation showed no racial bias from GZ.
Au contrarie, Cammi- it is the BURDEN of prosecution to prove this……..i repeat: where are those witnesses??
I think he should have never have been charged, period. I think this is a ginormous bunch of crap, waste of time and money and emotions. Sorry, I just broke up w someone and am crabby.
Isabella, any doubt at all means the verdict must go to self-defense. The accused must receive every possible point of evidence that is perhaps, might have, or if. That is why Kay Rock calls the prosecution “shit-tastic”. They simply had no facts to work with except for a dead young man and Angela Corey’s demands. According to our system of justice, only proven facts can be used by the prosecution. Their ME was so horrible, they hesitated to even put on evidence that proved TM was dead. That says to me that this should have never been prosecuted at all.
To Sandra’s question – This case will conclude and prosecution will have to re-try the case. Sometimes at the lesser charges and most of time re-trials do get a conviction unless the defendant pleads out. Twice around the bend !
On the other hand, a different judge may allow some info into court that this one did not.
I can’t watch anymore HLN until the verdict. It is my Saturday nap time. 🙁 But I took half a narcolepsy pill (which is not working so far) and watching my shows. I have a feed up but I never know when it gets disconnected. Let me know when you hear the verdict coming…
I can’t watch anymore either. To be honest I am over it.
Wonder if they will deliberate on “Sunday” ? (I still think hung jury !) or perhaps that is where they are @ right now. ~ Definately not a slam-dunk or they’d be home by now !
It’s going to be raining in mid to south Florida for the next five days. That should help keep tempers down.
Oh No, Not more rain – Anywhere !! I’m still drying out my bones from our monsoon last week. When I lived in Orlando, years ago the problem down-south is that god-awful humidity to piss everyone off AND those giant bugs…… Ekkkks ! 🙂
This whole thing started in the rain! All the pundits are saying hung jury now but I just think of that juror with 8 kids. I would stretch it out til Sunday.
lol I know! That lady with the 8 kids is LOVING sequester. She tried to say it would be hard for her in voir dire but immediately said she would do it.
I think all the women know that the country is watching and are just waiting and reviewing things so they don’t hear they didn’t look at the evidence. I also think that is why they asked for a list of the evidence. Casey Anthony came back in 10 or 11 hours, right? So being from FL they KNOW that people had a fit because they felt that was not enough time.
If it is a “Hung Jury”, they will have to work through all the facts again. It may take longer than a day. It may take about a week to come to an agreement.
If anyone is interested in the Federal Governments politically based interjection into this trial:
1) This link summarizes the FBI investigation into whether the interaction was potentially a hate crime. (Of course it’s not a crime at all unless a conviction happens) in the event the jury does find a crime has been committed, this explains why no federal charges will be filed. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/justice/florida-teen-shooting
2) The Department of Justice, at the direction of Eric Holder and with the blessing of President Obama sent members of the justice department to organize protests and contributed to the pressure to fire Police Chief Bill Lee.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/documents-obtained-by-judicial-watch-detail-role-of-justice-department-in-organizing-trayvon-martin-protests/
EDITED TO ADD THE CORRECT LINK. Sorry!
“On March 25-27, 2012, CRS deployed to Sanford, FL to work marches, demonstrations and rallies related to the shooting and death of an African American teen by a neighborhood watch captain.” Amount paid to voucher: $674.14.
A similar itinerary for March 30-April 1, 2012, says, “CRS was in Sanford, FL to provide technical assistance to the City of Sanford, event organizers, and law enforcement agencies for the march and rally on March 31.” Voucher cost: $751.60.
CRS went to Altamonte Springs on March 30-April 1, 2012, “to provide interregional support for protest deployment in Florida.” Total voucher: $751.60.
“On April 3-12, 2012, CRS was in Sanford, FL to provide technical assistance, conciliation, and onsite mediation during demonstrations planned in Sanford.” Total voucher: $1,307.40.”
Because of Judicial Watch’s open records request, the feds are furiously trying to back peddle from involvement in this case.
Obama has made not more comments on the case since the documents were made public.
nauseating! but not a surprise
Why wasn’t all this in evidence for the defense?
This has got to be a hung jury. After watching the whole trial (almost, I missed a defense morning) there is no way I would ever be convinced to change my not guilty opinion. And I see the guilty people feel just as strongly. If the jury is like us it is hopelessly hung.
I am beginning to wish for this outcome. I’m afraid I’ll see an innocent person convicted…again.
Can this judge throw out the verdict?
Oh dear Lord, Sandra!!!!!! Please say it ain’t so………i believe that this judge is feeling tremendous pressue to get a charge in. ( maybe from way up high, even….i don’t mean the ONE i mean Oprah’s the one)
Dunno, I have heard about cases where the judge has thrown the jury verdict out. Can’t remember the specifics.
And i would add that i wonder how much jurors might know about the pressures outside as to their verdict. Look how much flack CA and JA jurors got! My bet is that most are trying to convince the others of what “beyond a reasonable doubt ” means.
These people live in suburban Orlando. They are all VERY well aware of the Casey Anthony situation. I believe that is why they plan to take a lot of time.
Bill Sheaffer:
Skirmish outside the courthouse. Things seem to be intensifying between the two sides of this heated case .
Deputies are surrounding the area where the people have gathered. Lots of signs, chants, and emotions. It is hot today– and emotions may be reaching a boiling point.
A judge cannot overrule an acquittal. A judge can overthrown a guilty verdict if there was not enough evidenence to convict or if there was some sort of malfeasance (in appropriate behavior by an attorney or juror or someone involved in the trial.).
Oddly in this case we have both situations. There is no evidence at all for 2nd degree. However the defense made court motions about this several times. Twice asking for a directed verdict of acquittal, And once asking for the charge not to go to the jury. So we know she feels there is enough evidence to convict.
In the second situation, there was testimony on the stand from the officer who got fired for testifying that the state had withheld evidence that benefitted the defense. Again, the defense made motions concerning the malfeasance and his motions were denied.
So it is not at all likely the judge will over turn a conviction.
Can they throw out the judge?? If convicted, is there enough for an appeal (or 2 or 3)?
i think there are OODLES of appellate issues
Can who throw out the judge? If there is a conviction it will go to appeal in another court with another judge. Appeals are based on trial errors allowed by the judge so they will be reviewing every single decision she made. On appeal, I would go with malfeasance by the prosecution as well as the mayor and the city manager. I’m not an atty so I don’t know if that is the correct appeal, and I am sure they will appeal on many grounds, but from where I am sitting the politicians involvement, at both the city and FEDERAL level would be gross malfeasance.
and you’re right to say so, TT
malfeasance have anything to do with Angie??
I must say that I am hurt to know that my government interceded on either side. I feel a little less safe tonight if the government is choosing winners and losers.
WE HAVE A JURY QUESTION!
Question: MAY WE PLEASE HAVE CLARIFICATION ON THE INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING MANSLAUGHTER!!!!!!!
More Angela Corey news this time from Jacksonville Times Union. Angela set aside $342,000 to upgrade her and Bernie’s pensions in March 2013. That Angela is a busy beaver. OOPS! Is that PC? Calling her a beaver???
aka CUNT 😡
Oh, no, no, no! 30 years ago that was a reference to a woman’s vay jayjay. Goodness no, I would NEVER use that word. Now I’m laughing. 🙂
Clarification on manslaughter.
Lawyer’s reply: they must ask a specific question!
Even the lawyer on HLN said, “Leave it up to a bunch of lawyers to argue the point and say nothing!”
Oops, TT types faster!
ugh, the jury is going to fuck this up.
Bendy, don’t lose hope or prayers……….they may well have gone into this discussing one by one by one. second degree out………..now, consider the law for manslaughter and SHOULD INCLUDE self-defense. I think next ??? may be definition of self defense. Just hope that they are reminded of self-defense definition. Sounds like they may be going through the process, one charge at a time. I think there may be hope…………i have to think this.
Thanks Doc, you’re right. They may be ruling in or out charges.
This is just bringing back way too many emotions for me. I’m going to need ice-cream.
i would tell you my alternative to ice-cream, but TT will get all jealous so i will tell you in foreign language, of which i am sure she in unaware: “vino” ( 🙂 TT )
stop that!
Ice-cream is on the way.
Tamara, I’m thoroughly disgusted in you. You are a fucking coon. This young man wasn’t doing anything wrong and he wound up dead. This is not complicated. It does not matter what he did the day before or what he would’ve done the next morning. He didn’t do anything aside from being a young black male walking!!! You are fucking pathetic. You would think that an unemployed person with severe emotional and mental disabilities like yourself would show more compassion for someone who was misjudged by a rentacop. There’s so much more I could say. I am done with this blog. Enjoy kissing all this white ass.
If this was any one of your sons or brothers you would want him to go to jail and pay for the crime he committed. If you can put that in your mind and still not accept the racism going on then you are a waste of life as an American.
LOLOL, that was a hilarious break in sanity.
Your handle says it all! No one is taking you seriously because you are just spouting hate without thought. You know extremely personal information because Tamara is honest and transparent about herself; she shares her journey with us. Putting someone down for the issues you call out is nothing but hate speech. Calling someone a “coon” is some of the most racist language I have heard here in a long time. You hurl this to someone you are accusing of not accepting “racism”. It seems that you are embracing it with a vengeance.
Opinions about this case, expressed by Tamara and others, are based on fact and with knowledge of the law. These are things that you clearly cannot comprehend so you stoop to attacking with personal insults. Please stand down and go away.
My jaw just dropped. The term ‘coon’ hasn’t even been used in the BB house..! Side note.. Why do ppl act like GZ is leading the KKK? He’s f*cking hispanic! aka NOT white! He’s most likely been on the recieving end of racism himself.
I also believe TT has a pretty good tan, herself, sooo…just sayin.
By the way, Tamara. You’re afraid to leave your house but you can’t comprehend the possibility that a 17 yr old was afraid that someone was following him??? He didn’t have a right to defend himself? You don’t think Trayvon was scared? And for good reason. He’s dead now!
Seriously, why did he go in the dark if he was afraid of the dark?
It has been my experience that people who do not have a good argument or are unable to articulate, have a tendency to attack a source who they think they can belittle. You are sorry. Really, pitiful.
I have a philosphy about life that one can definitely outgrow friends. If i am striving to do more, understand more, learn more, get “better”…….i find myself stifled by friends who are SSDD. TT is badass and a great person to so many of us, so, i repeat for the second time tonight. FUCK OFF. She has alot of backbone to speak honestly. It is unfortunate that you have such a closed mind……………..but oh well, if you think something you said makes any of us feel any differently about TT…you are off-base. But how pitiful that you have to resort to trying to belittle TT simply b/c lots of us agree here is really a reflection of what sort of friend you really are. (fair weather?)
btw, what the hell is a coon?
damn, i almost forgot : :=x
I also forgot.
:=x to infinity!!! And do not come back.
Oh, that last was to Seriously not you Doc!
but of course, Linda! no worries
@YouCBS- if you want to call me anything – call me a cougar… I might respond by calling you a racist bigot – but that’s a little below me. How dare you attack TT, this is her blog and you’re a guest, so you need to mind your manners. But I ditto what Doc and Linda said to you…. :=x
I have a post regarding manslaughter instructions, jury questions, court response, etc. http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/13/zimmerman-jury-asks-for-clarification-of-manslaughter-instructions/
Breaking views from CNN and FOX…can’t do HLN. On CNN, Mark NeJame says that of GZ is not guilty of murder ll b/c of self-defense, then he is also not guilty of manslaughter b/c of self-defense also. He also says that the jury may not uderstand this element of the law. Judge Alex seems to be saying something similar, from a different angle. Conclusion: Judge Alex & Mark NeJame seem to be saying this is a win-win for GZ. Judge Alex just said the prosecution tried to play race card and it didn’t work. OMGosh! Can’t wait to read what y’all think.
peach, i regret to share that it is possible but maybe they took that long just to rule out “ill intent, etc” on 2nd
I have a lot of respect for Mark Nejame but he has been terrible at commenting on this case. GZ is not guilty of second degree because there is no ill-will, malice, hatred or evil intent. That does not mean they have found self defense, the fact that they are not looking at manslaughter means that they have not agree on self defense yet. The definition of reasonable force may not have even come in to their discussions for 2nd degree. They may have spent a lot of time on ill-will malice, evil and hatred.
Also he doesn’t seem to understand that manslaughter is a mandatory lessor.
PS Doc you have mail.
Agreed and agreed…………the only concern i have now is that the self-defense seems a little murky in the reading of manslaughter, despite its validity.
I’m just sharing what I saw the last 30 minutes from sources other than the hysterical ladies network. I had actually put my computer in sleep mode to eat some smoked pulled pork and cole slaw with a side of my homegrown tomatoes. Still haven’t read what y’all had to say in the last hour. I’m going to eat the meal we call supper down here in my part of God’s country…heavy on the country. I’m out for now. Be back in a couple of hours. 🙂
hysterical ladies network………….LOL
A verdict has been reached!
Verdict Reached
NOT GUILTY!!!
Not Guilty
Justice has prevailed.
Now I’m going to watch Nancy Grace explode.
She already is… it’s pretty funny!
LOLOLOL, did she?? Please say yes, Oh god, Christmas would be early this year, her and her handcuff necklace.
Wow, I didn’t expect this. I thought it was the proper verdict, but I was worried that emotions would win out. We now know that our founding fathers got it right again. We do have ‘a better self’ when it comes to public service. God bless all those that hurt tonight.
Can’t stomach the baloney Angela Corey is spouting at the prosecution team press conference. Investigation wasn’t going correctly until you stepped in and took it over? Really?? More like hijacked it.
And seriously, who shows up with your tiny children at the courthouse if there is a possibility of rioting and violence?
little kids? Would that be AC or NG and “the twins”?
Morning Sandra- bringing kids to something like this, bad parenting? Look, I know we want our kids to experience history in the making, but the slightest chance there could be folks not happy with the verdict would be every reason to stay home, watch it on TV and discuss it with them in a calmer fashion.
Exactly! I couldn’t believe it when I saw them.
Are they having temper tantrums?
Maybe their kids did, mine are 30 and 25. I was just saying that I thought it was bad parenting that someone would take their kids to something like that. My boys were terrors, I didn’t even take them out in public unless I had to. When mine were young, there were no “date” nights where you could get away from them.
I meant, were AC and NG having temper tantrums!
i love MOM!!!!
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/14/questions-answers-with-prosecution-and-defense/