There is a lot of misinformation floating around in the current discussion thread on the George Zimmerman trial. So I did some digging to check the facts. I was surprised that my understanding of where Trayvon’s father may be incorrect. It was my understanding that Trayvon’s dad lived in an neighborhood that abutted The Retreat at Twin Lakes. Wikipedia (yes I know anyone can say anything on Wikidpedia) says that Trayvon’s dad’s financee lived in Twin Lakes. That Trayvon and his father were at her place to see her and her son. There are four footnoted sources that are supposed to confirm this. However, I read all four and none of them really supported this claim, but in one, some kids from Twin Lakes claimed they used to play football with Trayvon in the grass where the altercation with Zimmerman occurred. So it does seem likely that we misunderstood the claims that “Trayvon was almost home” when in fact he was almost back to the house he was visiting, a townhome where he was a regular visitor. In reality, this is irrelevant to the case. But those of you that know me know I love digging up the facts.
So click through for all of the Wikipedia information. Some of it may surprise you. I hope that the footnotes remain clickable links so that you can check sources and form your own opinions about how credible the states are. This is Wikipedia after all. And as always, thanks again to everyone for playing nice with each other are arguing the topics without insulting those with other opinions. You are all doing a fabulous job of having one of the only “grown folk” conversations on the net with a very sensitive topic.
Trayvon Benjamin Martin (February 5, 1995 – February 26, 2012) was the son of Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, who were divorced in 1999. He was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop High School and lived with his mother and older brother in Miami Gardens, Florida.[38][39][40]
On the day Martin was fatally shot, he and his father were visiting his father’s fiancée and her son at her townhome in The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, a multi-ethnic gated community, where the shooting occurred.[41][42] Martin had visited his father’s fiancée at Twin Lakes several times.[43][44]
Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year.[45] One suspension was for tardiness. Another suspension was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with “W.T.F.” When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women’s jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said were not his, stating a friend had given them to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen. Martin’s third suspension involved a marijuana pipe, and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record.[45][46][47][48][49] Judge Nelson ruled that the defense may have access to Martin’s records, including the details of these suspensions, as well as access to Martin’s social media sites,[50] but ruled they will not be admissible as evidence during the trial unless they can be shown to be relevant.[51]
Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump said the parents had never heard about the bag of jewelry and that it was completely irrelevant to what happened on February 26.[52] Martin’s parents and their attorneys also said the defense’s request for school records and social media was a “fishing expedition” aimed at attacking their son and an attempt to assassinate his character.[53]
[SOURCE: Wikipedia FULL ENTRY HERE]
Edited to add photo from Trayvon’s phone. In addition to this picture which appears to be in Trayvon’s hand, there is at least one other of the gun and a full clip laid out on a counter. There were also pictures of pot plants of and of Travon smoking something.
I am including this picture to support my theory on why O’Mara keeps focusing on fingernail (non) evidence and the length (or lack thereof) of his fingernails. I believe he is trying to get this picture into evidence. Note how short Trayvon’s nails are…
Morning, TT!
So I have to ask, it’s ok to dig up some pieces of paper from GZ’s past, but TM’s past is off limits?
On the other hand, if all this hype about GZ and his police aspirations wasn’t addressed, it would be floating around like a ghost in the room. So for all the prosecution’s tantrums that it be admitted as evidence, the defense very deftly dismantled all 5 documents brought in by the prosecution to try to discredit GZ.
It’s not off limits here, Sandra, as shown in this post. However, you will see the comment right below yours, HAI STEVE! as going right back to talking about GZ and his story. I agree with you that very little has been discussed about TM so as not to blame the victim.
Here is something I find interesting though. Have you notice how O’Mara keeps bringing up TM’s fingernails? Do you really think the fingernail scrap showing nothing is important? Why does he keep bringing up the nails? I HAVE A THEORY.
There was a picture in TM’s phone that appears to be a close up of TM’s hand holding a 9mm. In the picture his nails are VERY SHORT like back before the end of his fingers. This whole fingernail DNA stuff could be refuted by showing a picture of his nails. WELL GUESS WHAT THE ONLY PICTURE OF HIS NAILS IS??? Yup the one where he has a gun in his hand.
I may be over thinking this but I think that O’Mara may be using the fingernail thing as a diversion to make the gun picture relevant. Will the judge let it in? I doubt it. She will likely rule it “too prejudicial”. But it’s certainly worth a try, no?
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Tamara Tattles
Also to show ME’s sloppiness, and TM’s hands not bagged at scene. Any DNA evidence compromised. But am unclear how this helps the defense?
But photo with TM holding a gun? Wow!
I’ll edit in the picture… And brace for the shitstorm to follow. 🙂
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Tamara Tattles
PS: Send a copy to Nancy Grace with the caption “BOMBSHELL TONIGHT”!
Wonder if NG’s ratings have gone up since Jinkasaurus took over in her absence. And then plummet after she returns. Maybe they should offer Jink a permanent gig.
yeah, i saw that pic……..good thinking TT
Regarding the nails: I googled images of TM and saw the one with the double bird, it also shows his nails being very short (as if bitten.) Never thought of that as far as nail scrapings. Interesting point TT.
You’d think with nails that short you’d have to get some skin cells with a nail scraping.
You are right Bendy. The fact that nothing was there, is suspect.
Ok GZ says in one statement he saw TM approach from about 15 ft away..but didnt have enough time to say im neighborhood watch what are you doing here? Didnt the 911 operator say they heard the car chime like keys left behind and thats when asked GZ if he was following? Didnt GZ say when told not to follow he was returning to car? If the operator could hear chime GZ shouldnt have had very far to return to right?
Agreed Steve, i would have had phone to ear and clearly verbalized something…..or called a couple of neighbors to also come out…….so many other approaches, but hindsight……….(woulda, coulda, shoulda)
Hi Steve – Also interesting was when the 911 operator told GZ to meet the police on the way @ “the mailboxes” GZ says OK, then you can hear him moving (breathing). GZ then says to the 911 operator… can you just have the police call my cell phone @ ____ ! – GZ didn’t want to “sit & wait” for the police to handle it themselves. I had to call 911/Sheriff’s Dept. when we saw a man (neighbor’s ex-husband) running through our back yard @ night. The man ran across the street and broke this gal’s door. We could hear her screaming and it sounded like he began to brutally beat her. The 911 operator instructed me not to approach and to stand out front of my house near the street w/my porch light on in order to flag 1 of the units to spot me. He said Stay put !! The ex WAS armed and when this guy spotted 5 cruisers coming out of everywhere, he took off on foot, the deputies behind him. Minutes later we heard 2 shots just behind our backyard. After I checked if the blood had come back to my brain – I realized it was a good thing I just did what I was told. (The girl was OK, after she was taken to the hospital w/ stab wounds. She came home the next day and then… moved out.) This was a nice suburban, rural township, with very low crime rate too.
Just imagine, then, how you might feel living in a neighborhood where 911 was called over 400 times in one year……….thinking conceal and carry ? just sayin
For those that can not financially escape living in an area like that – my heart sinks for them. A group of us went to the landlord to bitch about the caliber of people he was renting to and we could afford to move. So the last one out of the “OK Corral” – Don’t forget to blow out the oil lamp… ! Yee Ha ! I would not trust probably a 3rd of the strangers I meet to carry a tune for me let alone a loaded, concealed weapon. In our business It’s more difficult & way more expensive to take courses, pass tests, obtain certification & get a license just to remove your lead paint chips !
yes, i also have known several people who were “stuck” in a bad situation. Add to this the falling value of real estate, it becomes harder for someone to just sell and move. I did not mean to imply that we need to defend others or all walk around with weapons in a posse. But we do have rights. We also have a multitude of other self defense and neighborhood defense methods that are a far cry from carry a firearm…………..some of which we have discussed on the site. I suppose some of this “goes beyond the scope”, but there are many times that firearms have saved lives. I am sure most of us do not need examples. My hospital was burglarized several years ago……………..the worst part of it was that cats escaped from clinic broken windows. Thank God we got them back! These folks stole every single injectable drug i had…………….i giggle when i think of someone shooting up on Lasix (diuretic) and peeing their brains out for days. I called all of my colleagues in town to advise that our type business might be targeted. (come to find out i was third practice they had hit. ) This led to increased security and alarm system, but scared me……….made me feel almost raped…………i still get a little antsy when i have to go in back door after dark………….i go for the four-legged protection in most of those situations . (My precious body-guards)
I believe the 400 times is in the entire county. This is in fact pretty low. I imagine my county calls are in the five or even six digits.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 2:35 AM, Tamara Tattles
WHOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry i stand corrected thnx for clarifying TT
I am surprised this is misinformation. I thought everyone knew that it was Mr. Martin’s Fiancé who lived at Twin Lakes.
I did not. I thought he was staying with his day (which he was) and therefore his dad’s house was near Twin Lakes and he was walking back to his father. Even for someone trying to follow all the facts, sometimes I don’t get it right.
I had followed it since day one maybe that is why. I was in Florida when one of the marches were going on. I was scared because because the cops had roads blocked off and we were trying to get go the airport and one cop said there was a possible riot. No, that never happened, but it was what the cop said. When you have media constantly saying he was walking home, I guess I can see why it is misinformation. Unfortunatley people still think just because the news said it, must be true. You did a great job documenting everything.
IMO – Without record of prior acts or since a screwdriver & jewelry was not in Trayvon’s possesion @ the time of the altercation, (an item which was not identified as a burgulary tool or the jewelry as stolen) these matters could not be relevant to this case. For the Defense to make it relevant would be speculative and clearly an attempt to taint opinions against the victim. (Even an ashtray with forgotten roach-stubs can be incriminating) Apparently someone decided his suspension was deemed as fitting punishment without an arrest.
The school has it’s own police department. They try VERY HARD not to arrest anyone because of SACS reviews. All public schools are accredited and any arrest on campus counts against the school in a very serious way. Thus, Miami decided to have police department dedicated soley to handling the crimes on campus and ….keeping them out of the public record. Otherwise the school would lose it’s accreditation and the graduates degrees would be essentially worthless as far as getting into college. So it wasn’t that they didn’t have evidence, it was they didn’t want to look for evidence.
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Tamara Tattles
God TT, that’s sad… I’m so glad I’m not young in these times. I was petrified when I got caught only “ONCE” with 5 other Jr.High kids sharing 1 “cigarette” between us outside during study hall w/o a pass. ~ Oooo ! I was “marched” home with my pissed-off Mom in tow. 🙂 How humiliatiing ! ~ But to me, it’s still not relevant.
the reason i bring it back to GZ is the fact that GZ is on trial. What TM did a day week month an hour before has no relevence. What we need to figure out *from a one sided story* are the events that led to a death. I had hoped the med ex could help but really got more confused than usual
Steve, if the ME had found heroin or crack cocaine in his system, (TM), do you not think that could go to his state of mind during the altercation? Now, as mentioned be4 by me, i remember a little paranoia while stoned many decades ago (OK, repeatedly). THC stays in the system for a while, but there was a hearing re: levels of THC that might actually indicate that he could have been influenced by it. That is relevant to me……………as might be what TM was texting hours prior to incident. Let me put it into another perspective………..if you have a woman in your life, are there certain days, perhaps certain days every month, when you just know she is not in a mood to “go quietly” or let things go? When it is 5pm and we are running crazy at work (i call it the “we-bitching-hour”), my peeps know better than to be doing anything but their job efficiently, carefully and thoroughly for the wraith of Doc. Then is not a time to get slack on their work, take any shortcuts in care, or bring up a complaint better addressed the next day. Make sense? All goes to state of mind.
People just don’t want to hear that the trial is about Zimmerman and not about T.Martin. They want to show that T was a punk kid who may have been up to no good and that Zimmerman was right to suspect him of something. He may in fact have been a punk kid but that night he was out running to the store to get some candy and a ice tea or a soda. If I had a dollar for half the stuff I did when I was a teenager (and got away with) I would have at least a Coach wallet. The police get paid to handle suspicious behavior and as a black woman let me testify that the police don’t have any problems with grabbing up black people when they “think” we have done anything suspicious, in fact sometime I think they have to hit some sort of a monthly quota.
wickedgirl, I’m thankful TM is not being put on trial in this case. That would make is so much harder to bear for his parents and brother if that were so. He did not deserve to die, no matter what mistakes he made in his short life.
He ran to his dad’s fiancée’s house and if he would have just gone inside I believe he would be alive today. Unfortunately, according to evidence the fight with GZ resulted in his death.
I’m sure there are a lot of people that want him to be a ‘no good punk’ but I don’t think the people posting on this blog want that. We watch the trial for facts, we comment on those facts, correct each other when we get the facts wrong and sometimes we share experiences we feel are related.
But, there are also those people who don’t want to hear the facts nor will they ever accept the facts of the case.
Yes Stephen, Steven(?) 🙂 but this is a post about Trayvon. We have eleventy billion for George. .
UPDATED TO ADD PICTURE!
sorry i misread the label. Lets go this way then. What right did that kid have to WALK thru a housing devlopement at 7pm. Carrying candy no less..how dare he do that and drink tea? OMG!! I bet he is the kind of kid who may smoke pot and cause trouble at school..the nerve. And of all things how could he possibly be worried that some guy might be following him. He had his PICTURE taken with a gun so that levels the playing field
thank you, steve. I’ve been avoiding TT’s Trayvon posts because the whole case sickens me, but today I wanted to check in. Nope, still can’t stomach the racism masquerading as “objectivity.” GZ took it upon himself to play cowboy and initimate this kid.
It also sickens me and almost didn’t even read it. Sanford Florida is my home. I have been to the store Trayvon went to buy the Skittles frequently. When this story first flashed on the news I was beyond shocked. The news showed a picture of a young innocent fresh faced young teen as the victim. All the local news stations posted that same picture. I was devastated for his family. Days later a new picture emerged of a young adult that was easily fifty pounds heavier and the baby cheek softness was gone. I admit it put a different perspective on the story. While still tragic, it was much different then imagining a little boy being gunned down as compared to a young adult. I don’t know if I am explaining myself clear enough to express myself the way I am trying. The first picture was one of Trayvon from when he was around thirteen or so and hadn’t even grown a whisker yet. Then you see the next more current photo of him and you see a young man, not a boy. I didn’t understand you see with the first picture shown how in the world GZ was intimidated by this child! Really an unfair perspective to start things off and got all races outraged in the community was my observation. Yes it did change once the more current photo was published. Not as much outrage. You could see how Zimmerman could’ve been intimidated if it happened as he claims. (I am somewhat doubtful.) I still don’t want to believe this was a race issue. If he had been white and maybe acting a bit macho when
GZ spoke to him maybe the same thing would’ve happened. It is the south so race is always jumped on. Maybe I am naïve. I am living in a country now where I am a minority and get stared at having moved two weeks ago! The only white face I have seen here is the one in my mirror.
Sandybo, one of the witnesses for the state had only seen the pictures of TM as a child. The defense showed her the picture of TM as he was before he died. She had also never seen the picture of GZ right after the event. If the one neighbor had not taken those pictures of GZ I’m not sure that he would have been seen with a bloody nose and head.
I had never considered that the picture of GZ as a child who had been shot was what could have started all the controversial race issue but that is possible. I just knew when I saw Sharpton talking about the case that the race card was being brought in.
Mango, i was also shocked when i realized that SOMEONE was intentionally putting out photos of a much younger TM. Why, don’t you ask???? I do. And wtf about “where he frequently bought skittles? ” Never heard that one…………
Mango……Your comment about “racism masquerading as objectivity” is rather close-minded and bigoted. By definition, a bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinion differing from their own. Sound familiar?……..It is very unfair to characterize people as racists just because their opinion of this trial differs from yours. Where is your objectivity?
Yes, Bobbi-you nailed it. (my post of sarcasm to this was of same intention but short-winded)
Rose. Al Sharpton showed up for camera time and publicity. He is an instigator. I remember avoiding the area when he came to town and it was a huge deal. They had extra police protection and the whole security bit beefed up tremendously. I assumed over worry about him inciting violence and perhaps a real big racial confrontation. I was proud my little town did nothing untoward and no violence happened as far as I can recollect. Perhaps a few fist fights with some younger fellows but nothing serious. And I remember from the news there was black white Latino etc. in that crowd. Most of us work with one another and our kids go to school together. Anyway Sharpton just likes the publicity and media attention. I believe Jackson was there with him.
DITTO to racism masking as objectivity over here, too
Steve, I don’t think anyone could possibly think a picture of TM holding a gun, with short fingernails would level the playing field. The point is going back to no DNA found under TM nails. Even his own DNA wasn’t found, which is really, really odd, don’t you think? So, TT’s point is the fact that TM had very short nails might attest to that fact, as well as why there was none of GZ DNA found.
I think the think that caused everything to go wrong was GZ thinking as neighborhood watch since there had been many problems in the past and a break in only 2 weeks before. We used to have people cut through our backyard quite often and though we really didn’t like it, and though we would ask them not to do so, we felt it was harmless until my son’s dirt bike was stolen and later, my g’son’s bicycle was stolen. That put a whole new spin on our thinking of people walking through our backyard and every time we would see one we’d be suspicious and would run out to try to make sure they had nothing of ours. Of course, the thief was done at night.
Anyone caught with marijuana is expelled in our school system. I’m not sure if paraphernalia [sp?] is a cause for expulsion or suspension. I know that after 3 suspensions one is expelled for the entire year and has to go to an alternative school. I learned that after my youngest g’son got suspended the third time for fighting at school. Thankfully, he made it the rest of the year without getting into another fight.
TT, Rachel did testify that TM was close to his dad’s fiancée’s house but I can understand why you might have missed that.
After all the pros. and def. witnesses have been paraded on the stand, the fact remains that GZ left his automotive and put himself in this situation. He was looking for a confrontation of some sort. Whether to simply speak with Trayvon face to face, or flex his muscles as the Neighborhood Watch Captain. Did GZ exit his vehicle with plans of shooting Trayvon, probably not. Did he take the first step towards a confrontation, yes he did. Litterally everything that happened after he left his car, is on him.
To me, this case is a no-brainer. GZ was the aggressor by following Trayvon, i believe having this trial is a waste of everyone’s money. When it is all said and done, Trayvon would be alive today, if GZ had simply listened to the authorities and not taken it upon himself to (handle the situation)..
This post clearly states your opinion “GZ is a wannabe cop. or a bully, or looking for a fight, or confrontational or profiing, and if he had not done what he did. Get out of his car in his own neighborhood to check on suspicious activity none of this would have happened.
THE LAW, which is what the verdict will be based on, in no way says that any of the above actions are against the law.
THE EVIDENCE shows TM turned around and came back to confront GZ and knocked him to the ground and began beating him so GZ shot him in self defense. The POLICE didn’t arrest him because they had no proof of wrongdoing. LEGALLY the prosecution doesn’t have a leg to stand on. That said THE JURY may decide to vote on emotions because a young boy died. But if the go by THE LAW he will be aquitted.
And may God help us all when that happens.
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Tamara Tattles
You just rocked it.
And to Mango who said GZ was the sole cause of this, who was it that turned around and confronted GZ as he was on his way back to the car? Who threw the first punch and who was the attacker that was trying to crack GZ’s head open on the concrete?
WELL SAID and agree TT!
Who is profiling here???????????????
aaaww Rose i was just being an ijit up there. The DNA or lack of it is a very significant point. Especially with the nosebleed. It just feels wrong to let that picture in court for any reason and got my goat 🙂
the bottom line is, Zimmerman was the sole cause of all this. If I were walking down a street, alone, at dusk, and someone was following me in a car, you can bet yer boots I’d suspect that person might want want to hurt me. GZ is the sole cause of this.
With all due respect, Mango……have you watched the trial?? Can you understand that our justice system believes innocent until proven guilty? Have ever thought that one person’s judgement did not justify what they have gone through. At this point, despite what i was led to believe by the lamestream media, i was PURCHASED into the notion that some cop-wannabe went out searching for someone to find an excuse to hurt. Having now become fully involved in court proceedings and seeing and hearing what jury is presented with………….and then also doing the most unthinkable of actually then reading the documented history of the players in the entire story……………..i lost my bias against GZ and support and believe and, yes, i actually feel HORRIBLY sorry for him and his family and TM and his family as well. Life often plays out in series of incredibly tragic incidents……..the mom who asked her child to walk home from school one day instead of picking up because of work; the girl who ran away from home and ended up finding only a life of prostitution to support her; the family that decided not to evacuate for that hurricane. the missed phone call, the decision to go to the store at that day at that time………….do you see what i am saying? If you have watched court, if you have spent time reading and learning a little more about all involved, you see that one of two situations stand out as very clear: either all were innocents, in their own way…………..or all had a part in the big picture. i prefer the first picture…………..maybe, here, there are two main players and they both were innocents in the big scheme. i cannot say TM was a bad person or the person to blame for all, yet i also believe that GZ did not choose to kill in cold blood or premeditation………………….believe or not, he was where he was in a position where he had to make a choice: “kill or be killed” I do not believe he intended to set it up to be that way. (based on evidence, testimony and research)
i think TM reacted to a scary situation with the best of his own wits……….and that is tragic. TWO VICTIMS (why is it that we always seem to have to find someone 100% wrong and the other 100% right all the time???)
If i were walking down street and someone in car was following me, i would immediately pull out my cell phone to ear to give them message i had phone and was on it. I would call 911 or someone i knew who was close by, followed by 911. I would walk in lighted areas. I would pull out my pepper spray and whistle and flashlight. I might also go to someone’s door where there were lots of lights on, pull down my hoodie, for sure, and try to get help and witnesses. I am also trying to teach my child such non-aggressive/assertive methods of self-defense……….of course, starting with: DON’T WALK DOWN A DARK STREET ALONE
I haven’t seen anyone mention that skittles, Arizona Iced Tea,.and cough syrup are mixed together and used by young people to get high. It is called “lean” or “Drank”. I did see a photo of TM’s facebook page where he is asking how to get prescription strength codine. I believe this has been very popular with kids for a couple of years now. Just surprised that this hasn’t been mentioned in any posts. Without a prescription, the kids use Robitussin DM. This is a tragedy for all involved. I read that the reason the dad, Tracy, was not called to the stand is b/c he first said it wasn’t TM’s voice on the 911 call and he had to admit to a couple of other lies as well. Did y’all know that TM’s mom tradmarked his name in March 2012?
OK, but, interesting that TM’s fiancees’ son specifically testified he asked for skittles and Robitussin DM (dextromorphan is cough-suppressant) likely needs to be purchased by adult…………..so, coincidence, set-up, or over analysis. I note that RJ said that TM said he was going to store for Arizona and candy???? Interesting??? or not? I also point out how Good had briefly questioned RJ about what TM might have been doing over such a long trip to/from store, but he naturally did it in a very subtle way (as if she might say: “he took a little time to smoke a big doobie ont he way over”) Note lighter among his articles in possession and some texts about how he seemed to have smuggled weed in bus that seemed to be on way to dad’s location???? Just thinkin here..
Holy smokes, just listening again to O’Mara asking Fiancee’s son about their neighborhood and proximity of their house to the “T” intersection and dogwalk area (poopyscoop can)……..like only a softball’s throw away from home for TM, according to this nice child…………….TM could have easily gone home, instead of to the location of the confrontation……………..yikes, O’Mara even sharper than i realized
I know i have missed testimony..but somebody saw Trayvon turn around and confront and hit George? I didnt think i missed that big that big of part. Bloody nose we know he hit GZ. So who saw the event?
Steve, GZ said when he was told not to follow TM he was headed back to his vehicle and TM came up out of nowhere. He said he thought TM might have been hiding behind bushes, supposedly watching him. There was a big deal about the bushes being only 3 foot tall but it was dark and unless one was really looking for someone hiding behind hedges I’m fairly certain he would not be seen. That is how the confrontation started but there was no eye witness.
so it is just as possible that GZ caught up to TM and grabbed his arm and tried to hold him until cops got there and TM fought back and GZ shot him right?
Or that GZ caught up with him, held him at gunpoint and TM tried to get the gun away from him and it went off. Well, I guess that’s the same as you are saying.
But there WERE eyewitnesses that saw that TM very much alive on top of GZ appearing to hit him or what the one guy said, ground and pound.
Steve, i would say it is possible that GZ “touched” first, sure, then TM got him on the ground and was doing a pretty good job defending himself………..but witnesses reveal T on top of G when shot was fired. Doesn’t refute self-defense, but i also think the time-line in phone calls, testimony does not support that scenario. Again, i believe GZ from watching and hearing three versions………………I really do not get “i’m a big man” attitude about GZ at all……meaning, he doesn’t strike me as a very physically confrontational kind of guy in attitude, posturing, verbage, etc. Neither then, nor now. Just MO
The story goes > According to GZ !! < Half the witnesses saw one thing, the other half saw another ! – Could cancel each other out. Why did GZ ask the one witness to call his wife and tell her I just shot someone – never mind calling the police ?? As in the Arias case of self-defense, one tells their story and the other is dead. If GZ story is consistant, we'll see if he gets on the stand ! (for 18 days ! no less)
Justus, GZ said he had already called 911, which was obviously true since the prosecution didn’t show otherwise. I thought there were only two witnesses that testified they saw TM on top and the others couldn’t tell for sure. I could be wrong, though. I might go back and listen to that testimony. I do sometimes go to YouTube when I can’t sleep at night…which is often…and listen to testimony I haven’t heard and sometimes that which I have heard but can’t remember.
Its still only GZs statements that get us to the point of the brawl then. if this was in arizona i would say that george spilled trayvons tea so trayvon lunged at him and george had to get all shooty at him. Then the fog rolled in.
Steve, I think you would have a much different opinion if you watched the trial.
Peach, I wasn’t going to bring up Purple Drank and they call it here. I wonder if O’Mara will.
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Tamara Tattles
TT, I really hesitated to mention ‘Purple Drank’, and didn’t until you did the Sidebar: TM. I kept thinking that someone, anyone would bring it up. You know my feelings about this case. I’d just about as soon run up on a rattlesnake as to hurt someone over this. I just buzz in and out during the trial, but y’all have slowly drawn me in. I kept waiting on someone pro or con to mention it. I thought what if JA had been on meth? That shizz would have been thrown all over that Arizona courtroom yet here is another piece of information that is on the ‘downlow’. Oh, my daughter is so excited to know about your blog. So, guess you got a new viewer today and she’ll be bringing along some of her 30 something friends, too. 🙂 Is that a dangling participle? She is 30 something and I don’t know how many friends she’ll influence.
I have never heard of Purple Drank, Peach. How do people come up with this stuff? And so easy to make, obviously! You can bet I’m going to watch what my g’kids buy at the store from now on.
Steve, I think some folks wondered why GZ had no fog! They kept talking about how he acted but he was so totally opposite of JA as he seemed to spill everything.
That is why I can never find Robitussin DM on the shelf. I always have to ask the Pharmacist. Now I know why,
Katrina same thought I was just having after reading this! Def. learned something new. Never could have imagined this with harmless Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea! Amazing and appalling what people can do to get a high on. Makes me feel ancient.
TT I read your blog faithfully but I’m surprised at your summary of what happened that night. I’ve been following the trial, how do you “know” that Trayvon turned around and assaulted GZ? Just curious as to what I’ve missed out on with the trial since no one seems to be 100% certain what happened, just wondering how you are so sure.
I’m watching the trial. The prosecution has rested. They did not contest GZ’s version of events and in fact played them over and over. The LEAD CRIMINAL DETECTIVE who is usually the best witness for the prosecution, think of the cop in the JA case said he found GZ truthful after trying his entire bag of interrogation tricks did not change his story. At one point he said a neighbor had caught the whole thing on video from start to finish. His response? Thank God. I was hoping someone would.
The prosecution had not alternate explanation for that. Offered no other credible theories. Nothing. Why would I doubt the lead detective?
One reason to doubt the lead detective might be that he is no longer the lead detective. He is still trying to cover his butt for failing to arrest GZ.
On the contrary, he wanted to arrest GZ but did not have enough evidence to do so. And, as the prosecutor has brought his case, it looks as though the detective was correct.
I believe the lead detective was indeed demoted. What else would you call a desk job at night as opposed to being called out for homicides? My understanding of this is that it resulted b/c of pressure from people who believed he should have arrested GZ from the get go.
have you been following or watching? big difference if your source is secondhand news……..my convincing came from 1) seeing GZ’s pics and injuries immediately after the incident; this supported by witnesses to altercation. 2) watching and listening to GZ over a few interviews with police. I believe him. I also find it HIGHLY DOUBTFUL that he played up some big BS fabrication over this situation to try to lie/manipulate/stalk and kill. There is no support of any of this, either in testimonoy, FACTS , timelines, etc. This was a short span of time over which it occurred and ………..well, watch it for yourself. Entire trial on youtube.
Also, Kayla……consider the following……….irrespective of how is started, (i do believe GZ at this point), the physical findings on GZ and TM show GSW and left hand scrapings only on TM. GZ had busted nose and noggin abrasions and swellings. There is very credible witness to who was on top of who..Also, someone yelled for help and this also strong witness as to whom………..then the shot. Physical evidence and autopsy also cooberate GZ’s story. The bullet was on hoodie fabric but a little distance from chest (supports hoodie hanging over GZ). The bullet entrance was left to right thorax into heart. Entry point is 5th intercostal space. Your last rib is #13…………count up your ribs to the 5th……….how easy or likely for shorter guy to pull out weapon and shoot taller one at that level and trajectory if they were both standing?? We shall see what DiMaio has to say, i am sure.
I find a lot of these questions from people not watching the trial rather offensive, actually. I am basing things on facts presented in court and not on media coverage and emotional investments. You should really tune in to the trial.
I am with you on that one TT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TT – Is it just because someone has an opposite opinion of this case imply they are NOT watching the trial ?? – Isn’t this why our system picks a “panel” of citizens to make up a jury instead of pre-selecting ONLY people who would ALL agree, regardless ? – I know lawyers strive for that, and spend lots of time on strategy & money to influence all the variables… but isn’t different views of facts & testimony subject to this scrutiny ? How many times do cases lead to a hung jury because even what “They” hear & see may differ.
So Justus, share what you have gotten out of watching trial. Most of us here welcome contrary views based upon the same observation. That is the basis of this blog—–sharing. Are you watching all? What are your impressions?
Morning Docwall ! 🙂 I know everyone shares here. I’ve been here reading opinions, information, and sharing. It seems things have settled down now. I have been hesitate to & will not engage in some vitriol that seemed to follow the “race cards” found in prior posts. I feel it is hurtful & unproductive, albeit a factor in this case perhaps. (If it had been an armed, black, older teen looking out for his neighborhood, following an unarmed white young man would this have the same national dialog in reverse ?) Unfortunately, inflammation cam harbor disease (right?) Since this is a case of self-defense with only 1 survivor I have to rely on testimony, forensics, AND the attorney’s strategies (approach) to their cases. I would like to hear GZ on the stand though. I’ve had the trial on TV everyday, @ times I am glued & @ times it’s in the back round. So I admit I am not scrutinizing it as much as others, certainly not as much as in the Arias trial but I can not discern my opinions over any of the screaming and name calling anywhere and points that I have made note of to myself has no short order in reply. – I will try to engage more. I do not know if GZ will be convicted, and I believe there is a case here for the jury to “contemplate” reasonable doubt, but I don’t think it is necessarily a slame-dunk. It could still result in a hung jury, or the charges reduced to manslaughter. ~ Just please, don’t pelt me w/ old tomatoes, empty ice tea cans, skittles, or vanilla ice cream cones ! 🙂 (trying out some levity here) We can all sorrowfully agree – this is a terrible tragedy, yes ?
Unquestionably, very very tragic for so many.
other than GZ statements what evidence shows that TM turned around to confront GZ and that GZ didnt catch up to TM and the eventual confrontation
What evidence was there that Travis didn’t attack Jodi first? None. Only Jodi’s statements, which were inconsistent, contradictory, and not borne out by the physical evidence. As a 26-year member of the legal profession, I place my faith in juries to decide the issue by applying the facts (evidence presented) to the law and not basing a decision on their own speculation about what may have happened.
Jodi gave a billion excuses and tall tales about the murder. GZ has been consistent in his statements and the lead detective says he feels he was truthful.
I know you like to talk about your families law enforcement background. Do you think they never made a decision not to press charges due to lack of evidence? That was the initial police decision before this turned into THE BIGGEST RACE TRIAL IN AMERICAN HISTORY to hear Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson tell it.
that is, TT, right after the OJ “incident”………..do you remember people rejoicing in the verdict????????????? God help us if justice is served………….but she should be and we shall have to deal…….
But that was after it was discovered that GZ got out of his truck, chased TM, killed him then called daddy to clean it all up for him. Did yawl forget that daddy had some influence in the justice system. Don’t forget, the DA and AG are not dummies. They looked at the evidence and decided to charge GZ. Can we blame that on Sharpton and Jackson.
The detective does not charge people with anything. He collects the information and passes it to the DA who then decide if they have a case. The DA decided that they did not.
Where does it say the detective charged someone. I said the DA and AG. The DA charges, and AG can charge, but, general gives direction to charge.
Double edged sword when it comes to a jury and a judge. For example, Zimmerman is not being judged by his peers… and a judge can be temperamental on a good day! 6 of one half dozen of another…. I don’t put too much into our judicial system, currently… 🙁
GZ took and passed a polygraph using his ‘version’ of what happened.
Who administered the polygraph, the SPD?
The day after the shooting WESH interviewed John Goode the eyewitness. Same story as he told on the stand. Same story GZ gave to police. The second half is the police saying there is no evidence to support a manslaughter charge. Then Al Sharpton decides to rile everyone up.
Damn that Al Sharpton asking for justice for one of his people. Uppity trouble maker.
Sharpton and Jackson always show up for the cameras! If it isn’t a race issue they are the ones that instigate things and stir the pot. Rabble rousers the pair of them. As soon as I heard they were on their way way to Sanford I knew that was how this was now going to be played. Shame on them both. Doing much more damage then good.
Sandybo, I agree with you 100% where Jesse jackson is concerned. He needs to take a seat and be quiet. But, i beg to differ with you about Sharpton. IMO, he learned to research his facts the hard way many years ago. He supported a young lady who he later found to be a liar. Al is big on fact checking. He doesn’t stand behind every African American claiming to be mistreated. Those he supports “generally”, have a legitimate reason for assistance. I say generally because I’m not aware of everyone he’s assisted. They are not all publicized.
As Chicagoan we all know about the Jackson ENTIRE family but The Rev is on point about a lot of things just because he has been burned when he was found out to be on the wrong side of the truth. I love Sharpton with all his yelling.
OK, just wanted to share a couple of thoughts regarding discussion and a little research i did. 1) Read autopsy and toxo reports. THC level of importance for the hours prior to the incident are only the blood THC levels (not urine or carboxy-THC) and these levels are likely quite low for significant impact on TM state of mind, IMHO. I did not see negative toxicology report for other substances and hate to ASSUME that this means no other substances were found versus not tested for, but WILL assume this to be the case. Otherwise, defense would have asked ME why they he did not test for other illicit substances or alcohol. 2) Even amid the speak of Purple Dank, it was clear from 7-11 video that TM only bought one skittles and one Arizona, and my research cites codeine as other ingredient, as opposed to dextromethorphan. (although, hey, if ya can’t get the codeine, i guess the DM might be a lesser potency…???) I presume, then, that it is unlikely that TM was stoned or very stoned at all at the time……………likely used weed anywhere from several hours to days earlier. Also, weird coincidence about the “drank” but, no evidence of any consumption. Too much conjecture for me to make a relationship with the fight taking place. (and oh yes, there was a fight/physical confrontation)
Fun Fact: There are texts on TM’s phone where he is asking a friend if he can get him some liquid codeine. Also, because liquid codeine is a prescription, Robotussin is more frequently used. There is often photos of rappers drinking purple drank (they call it sizzurp on the west coast) on places like TMZ. They show the cough syrup and candle etc in the photos. I believe it is Lil Wayne (I could have my lils confused) who has been hospitalized several times recently for sizzurp overdose).
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Tamara Tattles
Even if he was loaded on cocaine, meth or anything he didn’t deserve to be haunted down and killed. He was told to not to chase him. GZ created a situation that brought him into court.
You should watch the actual trial for the evidence. Your assumptions are not based on fact.
I watch it everyday. I’m trying to figure out where you are getting your info.
There’s your other POV TT….Sasha, what do you make of witness who saw TM on top of GZ doing something with his hands?
did I post the youtube of that in this thread? I am responding through email because my Internet connection is in and out do to weather. That is the best evidence for the defense. Good did not know him and gave his account to media within 24 hours.
got it, watched it
Oh yeah – the key chime in his truck is really audible in his 911 call. Clear enough to hear him getting out the vehicle while he was talking ! Second to the GZ’s breathing – isn’t that what prompted the 911 operator to curiously ask GZ “Are you following him ?”
HEY SASHA! Would you be willing to write a quick blog today? I will use your blog as the talking points for the upcoming defense discussion next week. You can take some time to outline whatever you wish. Perhaps a review of the prosecution’s case? And what you would need to see to convict GZ in the future? I will post it unedited as a guest blog. This will give you a change to spell out your observations on the case and what you think the verdict will be,
Please?
yes please, Sasha, i want to understand!
Well he sure don’t show up whenever anyone else dies…
Here we go again… “Chased him” “haunted [sic] him down”. Words and phrases that show a biased perspective without any regard for the evidence. Confronted? Maybe. Demanded to know where TM was going or why he was out and about in the neighborhood? Perhaps. But hunted, chased, gunned down? Not supported by anything other than prejudice (prejudgment). Blah
OK TT. Let’s just dig out as much ugly info as we can on TM. He was bad. But, he didn’t deserve to be killed.
Do you think that George to be attacked for checking out a suspicious person in his neighborhood? Let’s say he wasn’t in his car. Let’s say he was home with his wife, his wife heard a noise, George takes his gun and goes out to look for the disturbance after informing 911. He walks down a path and TM jumps out and punches him in the nose, throws him to the ground and begins beating him. Does GZ have the right to defend himself in that situation?
Yeah, let’s say that. But, that’s not what happened. He was told to stay in his truck and he didn’t
See? That is not a fact. He was not told to stay in his truck. He was walking down the sidewalk trying to make visual contact with someone he was suspicious of in order to aid the police. While walking the person on the phone said not to follow him. So he turned back to his truck not knowing where TM was. He returned down the path that he had just walked and TM jumped out and punched him in the nose. That was the testimony.
I was trying to find a hypothetical where you might agree that GZ had the right to defend himself.
So, if he was that far away from his truck, how did we hear the chime ringing on the 911 call. His job is not to search and kill “in his neighborhood”. It is to observe and report. He is not a cop. He, is a proven liar.
Sorry, not following you on the chime on the truck? He was talking on his cell phone while he was walking. He hung up and went back to his truck to wait but never made it.
I believe that HLN has a map of the neighborhood with lines showing GZ path and TMs path and where they ultimately crossed. I haven’t looked at it online just on TV or I would give you a link.
it sounded like the chime in a vehicle when the keys are left in the ignition when the door is open.
Is it on the call where they say don’t follow him? Did the prosecution bring this up I don’t remember it.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Tamara Tattles
Let’s say TM was high on weed, or the purple stuff. The only down side I see is he wasn’t able defend himself properly. What other decision could he have made if he had a clear head? Maybe have more conversation with GZ to ask who he was, and why he was chasing him. The fact still remains, he was walking and talking on the phone, he didn’t break into anyone’s car or home. He didn’t go up to GZ’s truck and initiate a fight. HE WAS JUST WALKING WITH HIS SKITTLES AND TEA WITH HIS HEAD COVERED FROM THE RAIN.
Lets also say G. Zimmerman is not a police officer and has no or training or the right to go and confront someone who he deems suspicious. Lets also say if Zimmerman was black and Martin was white this entire conversation would me mute.
Man, I wish I could go back and edit my writing!
You are absolutely correct. He would have been arrested on the spot, tried, convicted and sentenced already.
And, where pray tell, would Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson be? I guess I’m in the minority here but I feel that I have the right to confront someone who I consider to be acting in a suspicious manner in my neighborhood. Whether I would exercise that right is questionable, but I would not deny someone that right. And, again, here is the word “chasing”. Tell me the evidence at trial that TM was running from GZ and out of breath when he was on the phone with his female friend. Or do you just equate a white or hispanic person walking behind a black person as “chasing”?
My Italian friend gets such a deep suntan that i wonder if she might be a seasonal profiler???? In the summer, not………….during her “pale” summer days, yes?
Puravida, RJ ,if i recall correctly (reviewing testimony but not her’s yet) , actually told TM to run and i thought she said he said no. Also no evidence of GZ sob (short of breath) from running, was there? So, i daresay, chasing is in the eye of the beholder.
And oh yea, especially these days in some hoods, i agree with you about confrontation /watchfulness. I think i have a right to look out for my home and property and want to help neighbor if they need help.
Mind your own business? Sure, but with safety and concern for one another. Tell ya a story (yawn, another? you say?) I came home one evening, dark, alone. From over my privacy and 500 yards away, i heard the sounds of neighbors behind who did some late night partying often………this time, i heard slaps/smacks and a girl/young woman crying and saying “don’t”. I called 911 right then and there and yelled” “Getting your F___ing hands off of her……………cops are on the way.” All turned out OK and he quit, she denied……….but at least he quit. Afterward, i was afraid of repurcussion from the guy……….apparently never happened. But, given same, i would have to shout out again. There is a difference between “not my business” and “helping someone” that alot in our society seem to have lost the passion for the latter.
I can’t believe we’re into the 21st century and people are still using the 50’s version of “Reefer Maddness” to infer that kids go crazy & lose their minds on the stuff !!!! I believe THC resin is an opiate based drug but (was) considered a stimulant (vs. alcohol, which is a depressant). Now called psychoative because of it’s mixed effects. Unless pot is laced w/ an otherwise radical drug (angel dust, or whatever NEW crap people dump in it etc…) OR if someone is mixing their poisons, pot is probably not going to illicit violent reactions. Usually the opposite. Zzz ! Some have paranoia, yes, but one is usually slow on the uptake and experience fright & flight. For those of you who have not smoked – I’ve seen it a 1000 times in the past & take the 5th on having 1st hand knowledge…. Lol ! 🙂
Not trying to create reefer madness, but it is fair to look at if levels were higher……i am reminded of a friend of a friend who went to Amsterdam on Honeymoon and got such good reefer that she developed severe paranoia and literally flew home the next day with new hubby. (now that’s love on his part.) Also can tell you about buddy on the pure stuff (THC) who KNEW she could fly. Sure, not typical responses, but what if there were alcohol levels…………..tiny? matter, not? This is a site to share thoughts……………and i wil also plead the 5th on alot of things
Ah – ha ! Experience the best teacher ! Saw more of my “school age” chums Wig-Out on really seriously stupid stuff, (chem’s, etc.) I wished some of them had just stayed “stoners” sitting behind the school dock. Most of them were more proned to alcohol anyway. Some have gone too soon. My older friends were more laid back – less apt to show off. Traces of THC stays in the fatty parts quite awhile in the system too. I’ve always understood it to be as long as month or 6 weeks…. [ummm…. goldenseal…cough?] So to put to rest anything regarding his blood alcohol, THC or ANY combined chemicals – Were there any significant traces in TM’s system that showed his “judgement was impaired” at the time ?
That I don’t know. But, IMO, he was coherent enough to walk past several homes/apts. (without breaking in) – go to the store (without stealing anything), and find his way back to his starting point. Until, of course GZ became involved. GZ had to stop him, because “THEY always get away”.
I am not sure, but I THINK that Rachel testified that he made it back to where he was staying and turned around. I could be wrong. There was some testimony that he doubled back to confront GZ. If GZ had still been following him, he would have seen him arrive at his destination and things would have ended peacefully, right?
Just curious, on what do you base “coherency”? what did you think about 7-11 tapes? anything? can you judge him from that because that is the only way i think he could be judged on coherency, except for witnesses to physical altercation. and maybe someof the texting that went on during that time period.
The only toxo report that i saw was regarding positives (i did not see reports that showed negative screening, perhaps i should look again, but am going on assumption that report only showed what tested positive.) The “best” of the 3 thc or THC/metabolite tests that were positive was only blood for THC. Urine and the carboxy linger LONG. But the THC is blood was really quite low, and i would find it difficult to believe that TM was stoned at the time. ie mentally incapacitated. I read some reasearch abstracts where several folks were allowed to get pretty high, and their acute levels were so much higher than TM’s was. I would conclude that he might not have smoked for several hours up to several days or more. IMHO, THC level insignificant.
Doc, what difference does it make what the tox screening showed. He seemed to be trying to get back to from whence he came. If GZ had not become a part of this picture, there would be no discussion. If TM was as high as a kite, he was able to find his way back to the community. So, I’m trying to figure out how his tox screening figures into his getting killed. GZ was following him for whatever reason, and I believe TM perceived himself in danger.
OK, imagonna try to explain my thoughts here as clearly as possible:
1) i do not see any tox issues here; -maybe there are a couple things i have said you did not read—don’t blame ya LOL
2) IMHO, where does the chain of culpability lie? that is really what this whole trial is about, right………..???? some might wanna go way back to when GZ was bottle fed and not breast fed and therefore “copped” a purported attitude? (excuse the pun) I am being facetious……but with any tragedy, and this one is HUGE on oh so many levels, there are always alot of “if only’s” , “and so’s” “whys” and “shoulds”. That is why we are talking here . I don’t want to hear about how everyone is attacking TM in your blog, i want to hear about what you think, why, how you have come to your valid opionions….
TT, i don’t know of many “men”, or young adult males who will let someone chase them in the house. I, and many women, I’m sure will do that. But, males are not generally built that way. IMO, if TM didn’t see a weapon, it may have been in his nature as a “male” to make an attempt to find out why he was chased or followed. This is just my opinion. I wasn’t there like many of you seemed to have been.
Okay, Sasha (Jan) just said something that’s interesting. SHe said that she believes that “TM perceived himself [to be] in danger”. What if TM confronted GZ, got into a scuffle, knocked him to the ground (where he sat on top of him and “pound and ground” GZ for a bit), saw the gun in GZ’s holster, grabbed it, and shot GZ? Would that, in Sasha’s and Iwickedgirl’s opinions, be enough evidence to convict TM of second degree murder? Or would TM, in their opinions, have a valid self defense claim?
TT, you gonna start new GZ thread? I am rewatching some trial and find some thngs interesting. EX, the president of HOA who testified that he did not think neighborhood watch was necessary AND watch was NOT a part of the HOA……did i read that family of TM sued or are suing HOA?
I heard they sued and got over 1M. No wonder HOA president is pissed.
The owner of the property, HOA, GZ and anyone associated with the property should have been sued.
I’d actually never heard that guy testify but heard it on YouTube very early this morning and he seemed really ticked off. I didn’t realize TM’s family had sued and gotten $1M.
I had not heard this either. If this is true then good for them. A symbolic victory is better than none at all. This case looks like it is tanking but as I said before, Zimmerman is considered a pariah just like Casey Anthony. Just because he will be acquitted does not mean he will be free to just live his life. His face and name are known and I say good luck with that.
I don’t understand why he would be ticked off. He had a lose cannon marching around with a gun, in search for “those people who always get away.” GZ’s job as a captain, should have been nothing more than to observe and report. Not chase down and kill.
I would agree with you if that is what happened. But every account of the incident has TM as the aggressor on top of GZ when he was shot. There are no injuries to TM so he was not fighting back. TM It would seem doubled back to jump him. Had he not done that he would be alive today.
“loose cannon marching around in search for those people”??? WOW, help me review testimony i missed, where did the prosecution establish this?
OK. He GZ admitted in interviews, he say a black man walking. The man was wearing a hoodi. He didn’t say the man was not breaking and or entering or doing anything wrong, he just looked suspicious. Phone records showed TM was on his cell phone. So, what do you Docwall have to show GZ was not the aggressor. Well maybe I misquoted GZ. Didn’t he say, “those *#@*&%, always get away”.
Two things:
1) from your own words, GZ did not say TM was commiting a crime, just suspicious;
2) physical injuries to GZ;
Oh Docwell, don’t even try. Sasha is wedded to her word “chased”. She mutters it in her sleep now. “chased, chased, chased, chased…”
kind of like “Marsha, Marsha, Marsha” ?
YAWN… yes I am going to start another post for the defense case. I will get it up today. I was trying to get Kimmer to write the post and recap the prosecution case as she has a totally different POV than I do and she is very smart. I think she is busy leading her fabulous life. But I will get one up at some point today. I will be up watching Big Brother after dark from midnight until 2 every night this summer so I am on kind of a west coast sleeping schedule. I’m onnit though.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Tamara Tattles
I know I heard a commentator on TV (probably HLN because I watch then a lot) and they said TM family sued & got 1m. But I have found no ref anywhere about this. So I might be wrong. Sorry for that comment. I’ll keep looking.
Ok. Just read that TM family settled with HOA for confidential amount in wrongful death.
So in my absences, I see that TT and Sandra have been leading the parade for GZ. It’s quite obvious. As I scroll through the comments, I see TT’s comments and guess who immediately follows after almost every one. My old friend Sandra. Uhmm?
It seems like the jury is in on this case. TM attached GZ and he had the right to kill him. After all, “they always get away”. Let’s just discount “the law”, or “law enforcement”, who told him “do not follow him”. Let’s pretend, that never happened and give GZ a good excuse for following and killing TM. Let’s just pretend, GZ didn’t know he could do that and claim to “Stand his Ground”. Oh, but, wait, he didn’t know anything about that, right. Until his professor buddy said otherwise. But GZ is a good guy, he just lies sometimes. But, then wait, lets not pay attention to that. Let’s focus on the dead guy, who can’t tell us what happened. GZ is very likable, so let’s just go with what he said happened and let him walk free. Let’s just ignore the DA, what does she know, she takes her direction from Al Sharpton.
*attacked
Lets not say any of that because many people don’t want to hear all of that. What they want to hear is some punk black kid was out in the neighborhood roaming around. He confronted this innocent man asking him what was he up to and then attacked him and was beating him within an inch of his life and so he was killed. That is what they want to hear and anything less is just dust in the wind.
You are so right. I knew I would get slammed for not going with the flow. That’s the SOP here.
hey Sasha and wicked, i do not think of TM as a little punk…….he was a teenager doing what alot of teens do (and that most parents PRAY they will grow out of or change) I mean, his mom sent him to dad to try to help TM!!!!
Sasha, there are so many factual errors in your comments that I can’t imagine you watching the actual testimony. I am not going to continue to point them out to you, but I will suggest you watch the actual trial and do not rely on the public trial in the media.
For example this is not a Stand Your Ground case. That is not the position of the defense last I heard. (they have only just begun their defense) but the defense is self-defense.
I can’t really continue to discuss the trial with you when your discussion has so many factual errors and assumptions.
TT – Just asking… If my memory serves me correctly (and I do not have the document links to bolster my reply) – But – Initially, did the defense not start their case with a requests for a stand-your-ground hearing ? And then, after being successful in their motions to have 2 Judges removed from the case – Wasn’t it “this” Judge who ruled IF GZ did not prevail (walk) in a SYG hearing then any facts in evidence of that hearing would be brought to bear on a self-defense case. I understood the Defense made a motion to exclude any SYG testimony therein and it was then an either / or choice to proceed on the part of the Defense.
You are absolutely correct. I guess TT missed that.
I don’t know, Justus. I have just heard O’mara say that this was not a SYG case it was self-defense. I am not sure of the differences, it was just a defense team decision made before trial.
Ya, I think that’s how it went down. Actually in between the numerous motions for continuences (please no spelling police – I’m typing fast) The Defense also had a motion denied to REMOVE this judge too after that ruling. Now… I have to ask doesn’t Florida still have very open SUNSHINE laws where these documents are available, many fold ? (Like in the C.Anthony trial) or has that been pared down. I still have my (nerd-land alert) notes on her cases. There were alot of of links on other sites – I’ll check them out when I can convince my hubby – No, Dear… You’re mistaken – I’m not on TT’s blog… right now !!! – 🙂
TT, I know you have so much stuff to read. But please re-read my comments. You and I both know that “stand your ground” was GZ’s initial claim. He and his attorney changed it during a hearing prior to the trial. I am well aware GZ is claiming self defense. I really don’t like the fact that because you see and interpret what is said and shown a different way than I – my view is considered erroneous. It is not necessary for you to point out anything relevant to what I’m saying. State your view and continue watching. Please don’t feel compelled to discuss the trial with me. If you feel I’m wrong, Ok. State your opinion. There are many different views here, you don’t seem to comment on all of them, though many don’t agree with you.
It’s a rainy afternoon ( A FUCKING GAIN) here so I was actually trying to understand your opinion. Remember my friend Kimmer who wrote the infamous donate blog? She is a very good friend of mine and she has a similar take on the trial that you do. I am simply trying to understand your position. There is no right and wrong as long as we are all using the same facts to base our opinion on. I did not follow this case from the beginning of all the pretrial stuff. I was loathe to discuss it here because it is such a volatile topic. I think we are both doing a good job about discussing our opinions and apologize if I have offended you or come off as…dismissive of your opinion. I really am trying to understand.
I thought that the whole Stand Your Ground thing was a media topic and not something that the defense ever considered. I could be wrong. I only started following the case when the live feeds started. As I said at that time, I was pretty out of the loop on the evidence and considered myself an impartial observer/7th juror.
I don’t think the prosecution proved anything in their case in chief necessary for a conviction. I would like to know what evidence was shown in court that you would base a conviction on.
I really appreciate talking to you about this. Don’t get frustrated with me.:)
The way I understood it, the defense had the opportunity to claim SYG as a defense prior to the start of the trial. If they did it at that point the judge could not deny them. Once the trial started, they still could claim it, but, it would be up to the judge to approve or deny. This may seem relatively small to some people, but, to me, it was significant. If GZ claimed he was attacked by TM, then he should’ve claimed SYG, made every effort to prove it. But, he didn’t. IMO, he approached TM, got a beat down, pulled his gun and shot him. Why didn’t he use equal force to remedy the situation. Clearly TM didn’t have a gun, or I’m sure he would have used it. IMO, GZ should have identified himself long before the altercation. If he did it, (IMO) it was way too late.
GZ clearly was not a fighter… this is why he may have felt the need to carry a gun. Many “real” cops wind up shooting people unnecessarily, both on and off duty. Most cops don’t wear their guns off duty. Those who do, IMO are looking for trouble. Most situations can be defused without using a weapon. It has been proven that if a person has one, they are more likely to use it. Captain GZ, is like many “real” cops. They have an itch to use their weapons because they are trained to do so. Cops participate in weapons training generally on a quarterly basis. To some, it’s like being trained in a skill that they never get the chance to display. Those are the ones who lose their jobs due to excessive use of force, brandishing their weapons, etc. Rather than let someone go in a minor situation, or use another method of apprehension, they shoot. i believe GZ fits into this category. He could have let TM go, as he was told to do. Even, if TM lunged at him as some believe, TM he didn’t have a gun. IMO there was still time for verbal communication. GZ didn’t want that. He was fed up because, “they always get away.”
I really don’t understand the SYG versus Self-Defense thing. I haven’t heard enough about it to have an opinion. Are you saying that SYG would be a better defensive and that is what they initially wanted to use? How do the two defenses differ in a legal sense?
As for you second paragraph, that is all opinion. Which is fine. It sees you are anti-gun, am I right? I think a lot of people feel that the retaliation from George was beyond necessary force. That is currently the only argument the prosecution has. The jury could find that George was not in fear of his life and that his injuries were not sufficient enough to require deadly force. That would be a legitimate finding. I might have found that to be the case myself if the prosecution had a stronger case.
SOOOO…… ARE YOU GOING TO WRITE THE BLOG, SASHA? Cause one of us needs to get to doing it so Doc will stop asking when it is coming. 🙂
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Tamara Tattles
TT. I wasn’t aware that I was stopping your from writing your blog. I am just a lowly commenter reading and giving my opinion. I am not anti-gun. I actually own one. My husband travels a lot so he bought me one. I’ve been trained on how and when to use it. I have a security system, cameras etc. I doubt if I’ll have a need to use it, nor do I want to.
Ha You are not stopping me! DId you see the posts where I asked you to write it? I am hoping you will. For two reasons. I am sick of hearing my own opinions about it, and think you give a fresh perspective. And two I am soooooo lazy on this rainy Sunday.
You can make it about whatever you want. It will be the Post to discuss defense case this week. If it goes over about 250 or so we will probably need a second one.
So Yes? You can writes something up today? Pretty please?
No TT. That would certainly be out of my lane. However, I’d like to suggest someone. JustUs gives a a great perspective on most every subject. I don’t always agree with her, but, she is a great writer and seems to back her comments up with facts.
/poutyface
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Tamara Tattles
Lol. I’, sure you were joking. If you were trying to make me laugh. It worked.
I second Sasha’s motion……JustUs would make a great blogger! After all, she is seeking “Justice for all”…… 🙂
Sasha – “Most cops don’t wear their guns off duty. Those who do, IMO are looking for trouble”
I just wanted to say that my father has been a police officer for 18 years and he has his gun on him 24/7. I also know a lot of officers and all of them carry their weapons all the time. Because it is insanely unsafe for them to not have it.
In 18 years my father has arrested A LOT of really really bad people and I can’t count how many times he has seen some of these people while he is off duty. Thankfully in 18 years my father has only fired his weapon 1 time, clearly not someone looking for trouble. He is however someone looking to protect himself and his family at all times.
When I was 16 years old are home and cars were vandalized and we were terrorized by gang members because of my father arrested one of their “brothers”. It was a horrifying time in our lives.
Just wanted to offer a little perspective.
everyone I know, male and female who has a permit to carry, generally does not leave the house without their weapon. There is a man who walks his dog by my house every day and he has a pistol on his hip. My next door neighbor was always armed even inside his home. Until he shot himself… well perhaps that is a bad example….
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tamara Tattles
insert picture of man in bed with obvious cold, tissues, nyquil at bedside, thermometer under his pillow, and handgun in his termometer case
Doc. I suppose it’s hard for me to relate to people sleeping and walking around armed. I suppose there is need due to the amount of violence you’re obviously exposed to. I should have paid more attention. I’m not exposed to that, so I couldn’t visualize it.
I imagine this happens more in the south, Sasha. Southern boys usually get a bb gun very young, and a hunting rifle a Christmas or two after. We start em young.
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Tamara Tattles
Dear Depressed,
Again I suppose you are speaking to what most cops do in your area, and I’m speaking about mine. Clearly we don’t live in the same area.
I personally know several people in various levels of law enforcement, from new cadets up to police chiefs and commissioners. Some friends, relatives and associates. Their training and common sense dictates when to involve themselves in situations and when not. As I said, MOST DO NOT carry weapons in their day to day lives, off duty. I’m sure that would change should it become necessary.
TT. I understand. It’s scary, but, I do understand.
and while we’re at it, let’s just ignore what Angela Cory presented to a Grand Jury
Because?
because Cory withheld any info on the fact that GZ had physical injury when the case was presented to GJ…………….hey Rose, wish you would be the source here as i think you have it down pretty well
So Doc. If that’s the case, why wasn’t it thrown out? Your are saying she lied, right. If so, again I ask why did the case go forward?
I should like to defer all the info re: Angela to those who can paste copy links, whatever….(you could also check it out online and share what you have found??)………….i am piss-poor at that (links) and TT likes to confirm anything linked as being legit. She, (Cory)however, appears to be in some deep crap. I think that the GJ issue may be strong appellate material, but, my thing is medicine and furry friends and RN experience. I should defer legaleeze to those who contribute here with better understanding.
Sasha, many have responded to TT’s blog, I am not the only one. BTW, anytime someone makes a comment you don’t happen to agree with, you respond immediately and continuously, and I might add, angrily. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but you have ceased to consider any new information and you lash out at anyone who dares to disagree with you.
Please don’t look at it as anger. I’m just not one to drink the Koolaide. Just because someone makes a comment about something doesn’t make it true (IMO).
I’m not on this site everyday, so when i am, yes it is continuous. I respond to comments that catch my attention. So, you will see several comments from me on any given day. You on the other hand, follow TT on almost every comment. And, that’s o.k.. I just happened to notice it because, i read several comments all in one sitting. i choose a day or time to read and comment, then I head off on a bike ride or to the beach and do something fun. I enjoy reading what others think. What I don’t like when someone attacks me. I believe we should say what we think, with discretion without attacking anyone. It’s just my opinion.
What you perceive as anger, is simple frustration. When someone tells me how i feel, or what I’m thinking, and what errors I’m making – I respond. Call it what you will, after all, it’s just your opinion and you are entitled to that as am I.
Wait you live near the beach! SOOOO jelly!
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Tamara Tattles
Lemme stack my 4 comments (all made yesterday), plus the one I made today to respond to yours about me. So my 4 +1 against your 33, now 34, oh wait for it… 35.
How is it possible to respond to “almost every one” comment with only 4 comments out of 180? Still not getting your facts straight before saying something?
And regarding your “absences”. Are we supposed to hold our collective breath and wait for your anointed return before adding comments? I do not need to wait for your permission to comment.
As you yourself have just posted “Just because someone makes a comment about something doesn’t make it true”. Unless of course it’s your comment.
You are the one that attacked me, otherwise I would not have returned the response that I did. Now you say I’ve been drinking the Koolade, inferring I am delusional in my opinions. Only because I (and many others), do not agree with yours?
How nice that you live by a beach, go biking and whatever. I too, live in a very pleasant part of the country. What has that got to do with justifying your attack on me? I have never before this comment said ANYTHING against you. None of my 4 comments have been in response to one of yours until you saw fit to call me out on this.
Saying IMHO is no excuse.
Sandra, dear. Let’s try to stick to facts. Please don’t say “she started it.” Let’s just try to play nice. I find Sasha very easy to talk to as long as she doesn’t feel attacked or that or opinion isn’t worthy. Let’s all hold hands and sing kumbyah… okay maybe that, but let’s retreat to neutral corners and win arguments with facts not ad hominem attacks.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Tamara Tattles
NEW SIDEBAR! Apologies in advance for long windedness.
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/07/sidebar-a-look-back-at-the-prosecutions-case-and-a-discussion-section-for-the-upcoming-defenses-case/
The above comment is in response to Sasha an no one else.
Sorry TT. Sasha made unsubstantiated statements about me, which is different than doing the same about GZ or TM.
Please excuse my absence, but need to go back and finish climbing Mt. Everest.
((sigh))
NOT BEFORE YOU READ MY NEW POST, YOUNG LADY! 🙂
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Tamara Tattles
Hi Sandra! i am in between sleep cycles here and was gonna wait to see all new posts prior to sharing but this one got me ROFLMAO……..geez, i wanted to climb Everest with you, but was too busy poopy-scooping …….(mad you couldn’t wait/or even ask for that matter………although, after so many miles up there, we couldn’t talk, so your wit would be sorely missed up there–hey maybe you and Sasha could go together…considering the unable to talk thing, ya know????)
just wanted to tell ya: i got your back…even when we agree to disagree in civil manner
love,
your little spic
Ok ok!! Love to! 🙂
Hi Doc, Will let you know next time I go. I’ll bring the pooper-scooper and plenty of baggies. Maybe Jodi can teach us American Sign Language before we go and make talking unnecessary.
just so long as you accept that i already have an array of sign language already with me that is mostly universal,should you get out of line (tiny violins, several italian versions of things from my buddy, and you know a few of the rest.)
I’ll try to behave… it’s the Italian Sign Language that scares me the most.
The jury is probably in on this one because the prosecution rested on Friday. If I were on the jury, I’d have my mind made up. I wouldn’t even have to listen to the defense because the prosecution didn’t meet its burden. Has nothing to do with racism, having a closed mind, or prejudgment. It has to do with the evidence presented and the law governing the charges brought.
gee I should write a post about that. OH WAIT!
Did the state meet their burden of proof in the Zimmerman case? http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/07/sidebar-a-look-back-at-the-prosecutions-case-and-a-discussion-section-for-the-upcoming-defenses-case/ Come see what they had to prove. #zimmermantrial
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Tamara Tattles
Excerpt from article from Sacramento Bee, The Business Journal, PRNewswire…to mention a few
OCALA, Fla., July 2, 2013 — /PRNewswire/ — Florida State’s Attorney Angela Corey has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury, convening in Ocala, Florida, over the alleged falsification of the arrest warrant and complaint that lead to George Zimmerman being charged with the second degree murder of African-American teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida.
The indictment of Corey, which was handed down last week charges Corey with intentionally withholding photographic evidence of the injuries to George Zimmerman’s head in the warrant she allegedly rushed to issue under oath, in an effort to boost her reelection prospects. At the outset of this case, black activists such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who whipped up wrath against Zimmerman, demanded that he be charged with murder, after local police had thus far declined to arrest him pending investigation.
EDITED TO REMOVE LINK TO SITE I FIND RACIALLY INFLAMATORY.
Rose, I posted this but we have already discussed this. This is some right wing racist propaganda and not an actually factual event. There is no such thing as a “citizens grand jury” And PRNews wire is not news at all it’s a paid place for people to purchase a “PR release”. Basically this is garbage meant to stir up racial shit.
That said, Angela Cory did do some questionable stuff in the case. But this particular “new item” is bogus.
i respectably submit it may be bogus for Cory, but maybe not GZ, if you listen to Alan Diersowitz (i know i didn’t spell that right!)
Sorry about that, TT. I thought I’d deleted the link and the last part of the second paragraph. It was certainly not my intentions to add fuel to the fire concerning race. You could have deleted the entire post and that would have been fine with me. You should probably delete it anyway.
No problem. That link has come up before. If I delete it someone new will post it again… 🙂 No harm not foul and did not mean to imply YOU were stirring the racism pot. Just that that sight is too far off the mark to be of much benefit here.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Tamara Tattles
The fact that we are all here talking about this without getting too heated gives me hope for the country.
I agree, it is quite refreshing. I’mquite a boring person, which goes without saying, But, today’s comments prove we can express ourselves without name calling and making doratory statements. Hopefully, it’s not the calm before the storm.
Sasha, I seem to recall a few derogatory comments in your previous posts…
Time to put on those socks…../wink!
They’re in the laundry!
Yawl are so funny. Cyber bulling is clearly your forte.
Sandra, yes I admit to derogatory comments in direct responses to yours.
What derogatory comments? I have only made 4 comments previous to this, so quote one I made about you. I’d like to know what you consider derogatory.
Doc, I copy and pasted the first couple of paragraphs from the article about Angela Corey but it’s awaiting moderation.
Did you listen to the witnesses from the townhouses? I listened very early this morning and I really missed a lot when I heard them the first time.
i am just beginning to do so and take long nap, i hope cuz i got too little sleep last night and am too tired to be productive enough today…….my solution is usually benadryl, sleep and wake up wee am hours to start a more productive day. We can exchange notes this week!
Does anyone know what happened to George’s wife’s perjury charges?
i think she has process coming up this month…….messy messy
i have another question. Didn’t the police chief and former state attorney resign from the investigation before Angela Corey took over as State Attorney. Does anyone remember why, before I research it.
Sasha, the police chief stepped down because he was told he was a distraction to the case. The state attorney recused himself, as did the first judge, Lester, I think his name was. I read somewhere that they might be subpoenaed [sp?] for the defense.
Thank you Rose. I in the process of researching who GZ’s dad had connections with to keep GZ out of jail. Dad had some connections to the justice system before he retired or resigned.
Rose, my research has shown that Chief Lee planned to step down, but was fired instead. And, there was a vote of no-confidence by the city council . The State Attorney was removed by Gov. Scott and replaced by Corey.
GZ’s dad had a lot of influence in this case. His job as a former magistrate included but was not limited to determining if there was enough probable cause to issue an arrest warrant or to arrest someone. IMO, he pulled strings through channels to insure GZ was not arrested. One has to wonder, why the Chief, and DA were at the scene of the shooting. I may be wrong, but, I believe dad was also at the scene.
Feel free to correct me on this if you have different information.
I see Chief Lee is on the stand now.
I would like to know what Donald West’s daughter was thinking when she posted that Instagram picture. Donn had the same tie on that he did on the first day of the actual trial.
I am happy to be not be on that jury. I am torn. I don’t think he will be convicted of second degree murder, possibly manslaughter?
I do know one thing; NBC editing the tape to make it sound like George was saying f’g coon was not cool. They are now suing NBC and NBC response to the suit was they regretted the error and it was ridiculous? I disagree. I feel that is what got this country raged concerning this case. It is not the first time that NBC has done something like this. I can’t help but wonder if NBC had not edited the call, would we be here today? Most likely not.
I also can’t help not to feel for Tray’s parents. I just hope that we all can learn from this and whatever verdict the jury comes up with is respected — we don’t have to agree with it, but can respect it because there is nothing we can do. We can voice our concerns, but harrassing the jury will not help or change anything. I am not saying anyone here would, just speaking in general.
See Tamara, I come here for housewives post and now you are talking about criminal cases, that I generally avoid discussing publicly.
Dona, i must agree, that like OBJECTIVITY, STUPIDITY is color-blind……………looks like another dumb teen thing to say or do (bet daddy’s not too happy)
My opinion Sharpton and Jackson only appear when something is race related white and black. In the beginning, GZ was reported to be caucasion and that went on for a few weeks, the media trying to say he was white. When it became clear and accepted that GZ was more hispanic (?) than white, they disappeared. Why do they only seem to cry foul or civil rights when it’s caucasion vs african american? I have the same disrespect for them as I do for Gloria Allred although she, too, has been largely absent these last few years.
She re-surfaced during Jodi Arias trial. Since no women are involved in this case, she has nothing to say… Or maybe she’s just on hols.
WHOA….THC is in……………enter paranoia, strange behavior and a blemish on TM. Hang on guys, cuz it is gonna get even more heated defense. OFF to Folly for beach, cluster oysters, hushpuppies, shrump and some jalapeno margarita thing. Look forward to what y’all have to say!