It’s week two in the George Zimmerman trial and it is nearly impossible to find a professional source that thinks the prosecution is anywhere near proving it’s case. It seems that the prosecution has another tough week ahead.
According to the New York Times (full story here), “The prosecution is also expected to call Chris Serino, the Sanford police officer who was the lead investigator in the case. Mr. Serino, who said Mr. Zimmerman had a “little hero complex” and felt his statements sounded “scripted,” recommended a manslaughter charge.
But that testimony could get complicated. Mr. Serino later told the F.B.I. that he had been pressured to make an arrest. He told the federal agents that he did not think there was enough evidence for a manslaughter charge.
High-ranking officials in the Sanford Police Department and the original state attorney in the case agreed: they decided not to arrest or charge Mr. Zimmerman in February and March because they felt they lacked enough evidence to rebut self-defense.
Mr. Zimmerman was arrested six weeks after the shooting, and only after a special prosecutor from Jacksonville was appointed by the governor. By then, the shooting had set off protests and turned into a civil rights issue.
Mr. Zimmerman’s actions after the shooting could also pose a problem for prosecutors this week. Immediately after the shooting, Mr. Zimmerman cooperated with the police, admitted to shooting in self-defense and gave days of statements without asking for a lawyer.”
Let’s play nice in comments. I am up way past my bedtime so comments will likely not be moderated until after noon EDT.
The policeman that brought GZ to the police station said GZ told him he had called for help and seemed confused that no one came out to help him. I think that will probably answer the question for the jury of who was yelling for help that was heard on the 911 tapes. That also backed up Good’s statement that the person on bottom during the fight was the one yelling for help. The office also stated that the back of GZ’s clothes were wet and that he had pieces of grass on his back. In a picture I saw the back of his jeans were very wet. If GZ would have straddled TM, his jeans from the knees down would have been wet.
When the prosecution questioned the Physicians Assistant, it sounded as though GZ was barely hurt. However, O’Mara proved his skill as he worked around and questioned the PA in such a way that showed GZ’s injuries were fairly bad and that he did have a broken nose, black eyes, lacerations and swelling on his head and several scrapes on his head. And that there could be more injury ‘inside the head’ from being slammed on concrete. He was able to get her to agree that the pain GZ was having in his buttocks/back could be caused from being knocked to the ground. This really blew my mind when he got her to say it was possible that whatever GZ did to stop the attack helped him survive!
I don’t know if HN cut some of the Physicians Assistant’s testimony or they didn’t go into the exam results but I was hoping for some neurologic test results to rule in or out brain injury. From what I saw she relied on her patient’s subjective history and never got to the objective part of the exam, like some deep tendon reflexes, pathologic reflexes, Hoffman’s, Tromner’s, Babinski reflexes and cranial nerve testing. It only takes a few minutes to do a preliminary neuro assessment. Maybe this is something the Defense team has planned.
the trouble im having with GZ statements are that TM was on top with his hands over GZs mouth to stop yelling. TM had no blood on his hanfs or under nails. TM was found laying facedowm with his hands UNDER his body so how can rain wash them off? the rain didnt wash blood off GZs head or face. Next is a biggie..the gunshot went thru right ventricle and shattered when hitting the sternum penetrating BOTH lungs.. Thats why tried to seal sucking chest wound with vasaline and plastic. With BOTH lungs penetrated TM could not force air thru vocal cords to tell GZ *you got me* before falling dead. Touch dna was done on both gun and holster and TM dna was NOT found on either.
TM was found face down, on his hands, which were under a gun shot would to his heart and there was no blood found on his hands. Does that mean TM wasn’t shot in the heart? No, that means either there was shoddy evidence collection or the blood washed off.
TM trying to cover GZ’s mouth may not have transferred blood to TM’s hands if the blood were draining down the back of GZ’s throat. There is no doubt TM was beating up GZ, is there? Blood and tissue evidence missing from his hands doesn’t prove GZ beat himself up, does it?
I don’t know about the speculation that if both lungs were punctured he couldn’t mutter something. This is the first I’ve heard both lungs were punctured. Was that from an autopsy? I haven’t seen any reports on his injuries except that the bullet hit the right ventricle.
According to Trayvon Martin’s autopsy report, both his lungs were collapsed. If you are interested, the report can be found on the Huffington Post.
The report only says the right lower lobe of the lung is perforated. Not both lungs are perforated. It does say both lungs are partially collapsed and there is blood in both peritoneal cavities. That doesn’t mean both lungs have holes in them. I think it is inconclusive that he could not speak.
I don’t see anywhere that says the bullet hit the sternum.
I suppose we will all have to wait until the Medical Examiner takes the stand. Hopefully, the question of TM’s ability to speak or not will be addressed. In the meantime, it’s probably best not to assume anything either way. You know what they say about assuming…….
spot on Steve, this is one of the main issues for me too. I looked at the photo of Trayvon on the ground, facing downward, hands underneath him, and tried to understand how he would have landed that way. If GZ were underneath him during the fight, how would he have extricated himself and how would TM’s body land face down with his hands under him? if he had rolled TM off of him, wouldn’t he be face up? Conversely, it TM were underneath, how would he have ended up in that position? I also agree with you regarding TM saying, “you got me”, a young man gasping for air wouldn’t waste the time to make that comment as his dying breath, Im more compelled to think he said, “you shot me!”
There is no reason to think that TM didn’t roll over himself.
Now I’m further confused…..GZ said that after TM was shot, that he (GZ) sat on him and held his arms apart. From the photo that was shown, that doesn’t seem possible. Thoughts?
trayon is straddling GZ bangin his head on sidewalk. Trayvon notices gun. both go for it. GZ gets it and shoots toward TM. TM sits up (still atop GZ) and says something like you got me. GZ thinks he is conceding the fight now that a gun was drawn. GZ gets out from under him and puts face down and holds his arms out waiting on police to come cuff him. (not sure if he said he sat on him) . That is the gist of GZ explanation to the best of my recollection.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Tamara Tattles
Sorry, I guess I didn’t convey my thought very well. The point I was trying to make is that if the actions transpired the way GZ said they did, holding TM’s arms out after the shooting, how did Tratvon end up face down with his hands tucked underneath him?
Had a chance to watch that part of the statement again. It was stated that TM was face down in the grass at the time when GZ was spreading TM’s arms out. GZ thought that TM may have had something in his hands or would attempt to reach for something to continue the attack on GZ, so to prevent that, he subdued TM (without firing any more shots, I might add). Police arrived at that point and GZ got up.
TM then probably moved his arms towards his body and his hands went towards the gunshot wound on his chest. It was a natural thing to do. Try it yourself, lie on your stomach and spread your arms out. It’s quite uncomfortable and you would naturally bring your arms in (if you were unable to stand up).
II think when GZ pulled his gun on TM, TM put his hands up and, then said to GZ, “YOU GOT ME”, i believe GZ shot TM in cold blood
im not saying they didnt fight. Just questioning whats been presented so far, with GZs statements allready made (waiting for testimony if offered). The pic showing TM facedown placed his hands lower under body more toward waist than gunshot wound. The lungs were testified to due to the sucking chest wound and why CPR couldnt help.
It looked like they were under his chest to me but I haven’t studied the pictures. I know he had at least one lung punctured, I hadn’t heard that both were. He would be able to talk with one punctured lung, in my opinion. I have no idea if he cold with two punctured lungs.
when they tried to do CPR all they did was blow air out of TMs chest so they tried vasaline and plastic to seal wound. With holes in his lungs its easier for air to escape there than pass thru vocal cords whem muscles compress chest to speak.
Air would blow out with one punctured lung. I’ve done cpr on someone with one punctured lung and had air blow out. That does not mean both were punctured just because cpr resulted in air escaping the chest cavity.
Your theory is flawed. Just because CPR made air escape through a hole in the lung doesn’t mean it would be easier for the air to go through the lung than through the vocal cords. Think of a balloon. Put a piece of tape on a blown up balloon and put a hole in it so air escapes from it. The open the top of the balloon and stretch it so it makes a noise. (I’m sure you did this as a child, make the balloon make a squealing noise by stretching the end.) Even though there is a hole in the balloon there will still be enough pressure to make the noise or “speak”. But if you try to blow it up air will escape the hole.
So, just because air escaped the lungs during cpr does not necessarily mean he was physiologically unable to speak. Maybe he could maybe he couldn’t, it’s just not definitive that he could not..
I once had a hound who was chewed up right thorax by a gator. Took owners at least 20 min to get him to me and he had lung tissue herniating out the right thorax. He could and did whine. I shoved the lung tissue back into the humoungous wounds, fractured ribs and all, packed it with gauze and wrapped the hell out of his chest. He transferred to specialist 30 minutes away and lived. So, one can not really know here. (i won’t speculate as to things such as edema temporarily providing a seal, but a sucking pneumonthorax will eventually lead to collapse of all lung tissue…….without intervention……..let alone the hemorrhage situation…..note the word “eventually”——-some point in time)
oh yea, i did also tap his chest for air briefly prior to transfer to specialist
Hey – trial coverage on CNN may be much better than watching on HLN. Less commercials 🙂
It totally is Two! Watching CNN now.
It seems Rachel is not the only one that can’t read cursive. 🙂 I’m an ex teacher and we are, I suppose, better than the average bear at reading difficult handwriting. My own handwriting is HORRIBLE.
TT, you should see what my staff has to interpret on my part…………..thoughts faster than hands leads to illegibility
My cursive does not even look like I am writing in English and my doctors is worst. I am glad I don’t have to write prescriptions… no take that back Thank G I can’t write prescription because my family would have me on that show Intervention.
having beautiful weather this week so real busy and missing all testimony. Since they tend to go thru witnesses quicker than jodi trial if the med examiner gets up there can ya post the findings please? THANK YOU 🙂
Officer Dorris is being questioned by O’Mara now. She said GZ did not know/realize that TM was dead. She said he put his head down and shook his head no and she felt as though he was affected by this knowledge.
She said there were a few small changes in GZ interviews with other officers but nothing significant.
Dorris said GZ did not show anger, hatred, ill will toward TM which undermines intent for 2nd degree murder.
Here on CNN world, i have to say that i genuinely believe that GZ is being honest. Video interview day after………….i think he is being honest. So tragic, all of it, but, i think he is being honest.
I agree. They talk about inconsistencies in his different stories. But I think he’s pretty darn consistent. Lord knows if I had to repeat my version of such a happening, it would be different each time. Not because I’d be lying but I’d remember something else each time I told the story.
Rose~It looks like Doris has some memory recall glitches regarding GZ’s first call to the police and his initial attitude toward TM. There was a built-in animosity towards TM at the outset. That is what led to the deadly confrontation in the first place.
There is a bigger picture here about how we think of each other. How we communicate with one another. How we make assumptions and presumptions, and i honestly think that both TM and GZ were guided by such ways of prejudicial thinking.
I can remember almost 40 years ago when i would hitchhike by myself. Today, i won’t even take a hiking trail alone, unless it is super-crowded. (neither dog nor weapon would change that feeling). SHIT—–“Why can’t we all just along?” Why can’t we teach our kids to stay safe without making them afraid? The other day i was in parking lot outside BB&B and was approached about 20 feet away by a man. I was in drive, locked doors, middle of day, but looked around and saw NO ONE out there but me and this guy. Kept moving car, rolled window (noted he did not likely have any weapon as he had on thin, skimpy shorts) and said????. He gave me story about no gas, only $1…….that is his car over there…….me keep driving slowly………..said, “you kinda scared me” he said “yeah, i’m sorry”……i While continuing to drive slowly rolled down window 1/2 way said “Bless Your heart, i’m sorry” and gave him $5 from the tips of my fingers while driving. What a world of late, huh? btw, i later hear this is a crack hood i was in…………:-)
Docwall don’t feel bad at all about that encounter! I had a similar encounter at a highway rest stop in the middle of the day. I had pulled my car over, not in a space, to send a text message and was approached by a strange man with a story about how his friend’s car got towed….he asked for $ to take a train home. The story was ridiculous, but I still gave him $5, and he walked off. My daughter told me later that he was probably a scam artist, but I DIDN’T CARE. I could afford the $5, and the whole thing was over and done with. Sometimes the path of least resistance is the best one.
Cammi………..thank God you were not carjacked or worse………..who cares about $5……scam me away, world, just don’t hurt my child, my pets, my peeps or my family.
Unless they float down from the heavens I am not stopping for any grown man unless he is small enough that I know I can take him.
My story is kinda like Docs. I came out of Costco the other day and this young man approached me and told me his car had just been impounded on the street and he needed money to get from there to other part of town. Now I didn’t know how far he had to go but my first thought was he could walk. I hadn’t noticed that he was approaching any other people for help. I wondered if he picked me because I was older and might have more sympathy for him. I had to tell him no. Felt bad. He told me to have a nice day and left. I told him as he walked away that I don’t usually carry any money, which is true. I use credit cards for everything. He turned around and said “I told you to have a nice day.” I checked later. I had 3 dollars. I’m glad I was in a crowed parking lot in the middle of the afternoon because this guy came out of nowhere.
Beverly….my story is a little different in that it was dark, I was with a girl friend and the young man was looking for a cigarette. We had just left a restaurant and walking to our car that was parked a few hundred feet away by a sidewalk. The young man just appeared, as if out of nowhere, from a vacant baseball field and asked for a cigarette. I had just lit up and was putting the pack back in my pocketbook, so what could I say! I gave him a cigarette and a light and thankfully he walked away! My girl friend was mortified that I hadn’t just said no, thinking he could have very easily swiped my pocketbook while I fumbled around. My thinking was that he knew I had a pack of cigarettes, so if I said no, what might he have done next? I kind of relate to you in the fact that you felt the need to give him an explanation for not giving him any money. I certainly felt I HAD to give him the cigarette. We, as women, should be able to say “no” without fearing repercussions of any kind.
I have been watching the trial but also slaving over this new post. Even though you don’t watch Big Brother, You might find it interesting/appalling…
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/01/big-brother-15-contestents-include-racists-homophobes-and-misogynists/
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Tamara Tattles
I, for one, have always read all your blogs and the comments that follow. Although I don’t watch these reality shows, I do enjoy the witty and friendly comments ~ well, they’re not all so friendly, but they make for an interesting read!……This Big Brother cast seems like a real swell group. (wink/wink) Maybe they could find a puppy to kick around, too!
Hey Y’all thanks for posting today, I was tied up researching a different post entirely. Remember when we used to state when court started, who was on the stand and the very basic major details of the case during the JA trial? If you have time to add a bit of that in it would be great. Here in the south we are having summer storms all weeks so lots of us will lose power and or Internet from time to time. Keep us updated! Thanks.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Tamara Tattles
I watch a lot of trials and usually try to go in with an open mind. As a result of that, after the prosectuion’s case in chief, I am usually thinking “wow, that’s some good evidence. How will the defense counter that?” This may be the first case I have ever watched where I think the defense should rest without putting on a case at all. Not saying that will happen, but I don’t think it is a crazy idea.
TT, I have been thinking that exact thing today.
I’d heard that the lead detective wanted to charge GZ with 2nd degree murder at one point so I was expecting he’d have some big inconsistencies and kept waiting to here them but there were none. And then O’Mara cleared up any doubt about GZ stories not be consistent, even getting him to admit that there was a case for self defense.
JVM or one of the others on HLN said the lead detective, Serino [?] met with TM’s dad to explain there was not enough evidence to charge GZ and then he was removed from the case and GZ was charged.
DID ANYONE ELSE NOTICE: the James Gandolfini look-alike behind TM’s parents???
All I noticed was these storms have knocked out my direct tv. I have no idea what’s going on today.
Bendy, the lead detective as well as the first cop to interview Zimmerman got on the stand and said everything the defense needs. His stories were consistent (no ninja aliens:) ) he spoke calmly and waived his rights to an attorney, they elected not to charge him based on no evidence of a crime. etc.
This is the dumbest trial I have ever seen. The state has no case, the lead detective is testifying for the defense. The state was forced to bring these unsupported charges due to public outcry. Lead detective is on stand right now a few quotes. “His story cooberated (sp) the evidence” “there was no reason not to believe him” etc etc.
THE LEAD DETECTIVE is supporting the defense.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Tamara Tattles
Pressure and hysteria brought on this trial. One thing is for sure; If found guilty George will die in prison. If acquitted he will be murdered. What an utter tragedy this is! I feel so sorry for Trayvon and George.
Thank you!
COMPLETELY agree with you TT. What is really interesting to me is that people who believe he is guilty (from my social media investigation) think the Prosecution is doing a great job and that the witnesses have helped the states case.
Corroborate? Please don’t call me out as spelling police. I don’t do that.
Sorry, Bendy I forgot that your power is out. On the stand last was the lead detective who did a number of interviews with George including a visit to the scene of the tragedy and a “challenge ” interview, to flush out any lies or changes in the account.
He told George that it may have been videotaped just to see how George would react.
George replied,”Thank God, I was hoping someone had videotaped it.”. He then said he knew George was telling the truth or else he was compulsive liar.
geezaree!!!!!!!!!!! i am ILL over HLN and also CNN with the “N” show………(i had hopes for both networks, but they are caving). Tonight i am flipping the big bird to both networks and nauseous over how afraid they seem to be about dealing with testimony, reality and racial issues. I better shut up now, but, for now, all of my animals are called either “Melato”, “Cracker” or “Nigger” based on color patterns. We believe in “a Rose i just a Rose” by name. (ALTHOUGH, we reserve the right to call one another any of the above names if our music has it or we instill it into lyrics!)
WTF????
People are just people…………..dogs are dogs…………cats are cats……….(although, some cats are dogs, and some dogs are people)
XXOO PS: STFU Nancy Grace
So glad you just posted I was looking for your email. I have sent one. Question if you have a minute. Thanks.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Tamara Tattles
just responded…………..i had a “chunky dunk” lap moment to get out a little frustration… (that’s skinny dipping for those who admit it will never quite be the way it was “pre-child” )
Greta from Fox, or faux news if that’s how you like it, is now in town at the trial and reporting almost hourly. She also usually goes to the scene of the murder and this is no different. She said she walked the apartment complex at the same time as the incident last nigh. As usual, she is as blunt in speaking as she looks, facelift or not. Her program is on at 10 and I cannot handle NG for this trial. She may not realize that it would hurt very badly to lose a 29 year old son, too. Check y’all on the morrow.
OMG Nancy Grace just ask the MARTIN atty if the defense was going to decide not to put on a defense at all. I guess we aren”t the only ones thinking that is a good option.
Nancy is insane. She is FIRMLY anti Zimmerman despite the state having no evidence.
Just wanted to say… In all the court trials I’ve ever seen over the years, and I must add regardless of any opinions as to the facts in evidence… This is the worst prosecution team I have ever, ever watched. ~ Are they eating too much for breakfast or something… Zzzzz ! (Hey… guys here’s a towel – toss it in !) I do agree with Tamara, the defense could rest without putting on a case but I’m sure their billable hours would take a hit. What did Mr. Matinez call it, “more coins in their pot” or something like that ? 🙂
i would say that you only have to work with what you have………..
Which brings me to my query: who billed/spent more (Zimmerman’s defense or Arias’ public defenders)? If Zimmerman’s attorneys are not on the public dole, then we might never know. But I am willing to guess who has out billed whom.
Pura, Further to that, if GZ is found not guilty/acquitted, can he sue anyone for dragging him through all this and recovering his financial loss?
He killed someone. It is not like he was in the neighborhood and a boy ended up dead and they have circumstantial evidence that GZ may have shot him. GZ has experieced financial loss and TZ is dead!
I don’t think anyone on planet earth disputes that point…..
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Tamara Tattles
just saw a pic of TMs shirt with the bullet hole. There is a suprisingly SMALL amount of blood for a direct heart wound. No matter how this trial ends half of the country will be pissed. I just like figuring out how all the peices fit. Does the state have many more witnesses left?…whats the next trial in line TT?
They say that TM’s mother is going to testify and say it’s TM’s voice on the tape. They expect it to be tomorrow or the next day. That and the medical examiner should be about all that is left for the prosecution. I think if I lived in a populated city, I would stock up on supplies and keep my gas tank filled. No matter what the verdict is, I don’t trust us to ‘be ye kind one to another’.
yep………….get ready for the angry to riot
Doc/Peach: I wonder if the media (read: HLN) can be charged with inducing a riot, or inflammatory comments contributing to rioting? Class-action suit against Nancy Grace?!?
I just hope there are no deaths or grievous bodily harm, or business owners losing their livelihood due to looting. I can’t believe we live in a society where this happens, just because a handful or group of people is unhappy about something. Added on to that are the usual thugs that will take advantage of it for their own personal gain. Remember the G20 summit in Vancouver, or the Stanley Cup riot? Not a complete brain between the lot of them…
Sandra, what is really sad to me is that the biased and closed minds are being SPOON FED (IMHO) by the media. From my little corner there is not any reason to riot, but just because that might, potentially be someone’s choice does not legitimize it. Of course, this is just the opinion or one little spic/Cracker mix and her most devoted mulatto cat and nigger dogs! (crack-crack)
Doc, I should learn not to be drinking anything while reading these. Just snorted my coffee through my nose…!! Snork!
Ya know, snorting coffee will not only burn and make you cough for hours, but imagine how severe the caffeine effects! May as well just give your own little mulatto dog the coffee and see her run! (oops, she’s a pure-bred bitch, isn’t she?——what, Aramic??/)
sorry, i am permanently on a racial labeling tirade……………keeping PC and MANNERS in mind
xxoo
Sorry Doc, don’t have a dog, but don’t need to give my two rescue Siamese-cross kitties any coffee because they bounce off the walls (furniture, heirlooms, me and other inhabitants) very well without it. Maybe I should call them mix-race??
Steve, I heard in t that the bullet hole was actually under a button. Did he have that kind of shirt on? I did see the picture of the gunshot wound to his chest and it was small. I don’t know what I expected but that was not it!
@Rose,
The shirt he had on was just a regular hoodie pullover. The BUTTON they are referencing was not the ‘regular’ clothing button used as closure aperture, but a big ‘campaign button’ type of thing, which has become so popular lately. It looked to be about 3” in diameter, and was attached on his left side, above the breast.
When I saw the picture of it, I had the same exact thought. HOW did the shot manage to make its way UNDERNEATH the button? That curiosity was enforced by the EMTs’ testimony that they initially could not even find the bullet entry . Only after raising the button were they able to see the hole in the shirt and the small amount blood around it.
That was another surprising thing – the size of the wound and the relative absence of bleeding from it. You’d expect that if the heart is perforated, there would be pretty significant amount of blood pumped out post impact. Based on that, I guess in this case death must have been almost instantaneous, with the heart stopping to pump blood very rapidly, to account for no effusive bleeding.
As such, I see several problems with the way this whole incident went down, even though I cannot figure out why or how it was possible for things to happen this or that way. But for sure, it puts GZ statement that TM spoke to him after getting shot, in question. If TM’s heart stopped almost immediately (as evidenced by very limited bleeding), then there is NO WAY that TM would have been able to say ANYTHING to GZ, especially TWICE, and also continue moving and require to be restrained.
My opinion on the details of this case has vacillated for a while now, though the basics remain the same, i.e. had GZ not followed TM there would be no case, had GZ not been carrying the concealed gun he would never feel cocky enough to follow a strange man on foot in the dark, etc. So GZ was pretty much the reason, the party responsible for bringing on the event. But from that point on, only the two of them knew what happened, who attacked whom, and how the outcome ended up being a dead person.
I agree that the prosecution does seem to be malicious and politically based.
IT IS MONSOONING IN ATL Can’t maintain an erection, er connection. TV in and out. Comment moderation limited. Please keep me updated. 🙂
The autopsy report states there was 1300 ml (44 oz) of blood in his right chest cavity and 1000 ml (34 oz) of blood in his left chest cavity. That’s more than half a gallon so he was bleeding internally but the blood wasn’t escaping through the bullet wound. The blood was going through the path of least resistance into the plural cavities rather than pushing out through the wound.
I have no idea how long it would take to bleed that much or if CPR chest compressions could have contributed to this.
thanx Peach. High wind and rain kept my project stopped all last week now gotta scramble and im not going to see much more of this trial. I think the medical examiner is the testimony i will miss the most. My P.O.S. phone wont let me veiw the report. Ive just been trying and instead found some sites with more hate than the jodi didnt do it site had. Truly scary people out there. Farm country is great aint it?
Yeah Baby……….(sorry for lapse in time but my little cracker cat just jumped the mulatto car and then the nigger cat got into the action until the spic mom and mulatto/cracker dog got into their business) BTW, we only discussed our purported origins while listening and singing to it with rapp/hip-hop. Guess we are OK with race police???? BTW—-ONLY LOVE here!
Like Doc, I don’t have to live in fear in my rural part of the state. Until all this STUFF with PD and the TM case, I thought we had ALL moved on. I well remember the Watts riots in the 70’s and I read @ people threatening to kill others. I come here to visit you all but I’m not glued to this trial like with the JA deal. Somthing deep in my spirit told me this was going to be BAD. I’ve even read that the PD story was broken in order to further this trial. I’m not saying I believe that. I bend toward conspiracy theories anyway. OK, guys, love one another.
I have been crazy busy these last couple of weeks and have been unable to watch the trial. I am relying on the news sites and blogs to keep up. I don’t know what the outcome will be but either way it’s not going to end well. I have a hard time with the fact that Trayvon was not armed and Zimmerman just shot him and killed him. Self defense? maybe if he kicked his ass but shooting him saying he feared for his life?? really? nah something is wrong with that
So if GZ was genuinely shocked to later learn that TM was dead (according to Doris Singleton’s testimony), then obviously GZ did not shoot with the INTENT to kill.
Uhh he shot him at point blank range with a hollow tip bullet! He knew he was dead. Hollow tip bullets are deadly, which is why they’re banned in some states.
GZ said he wasn’t even sure if the bullet had hit TM.
I guess you all believe everything Zimmerman says. Lol. Now that right there makes it even worse. He shot him at point blank range, but didn’t know if the bullet hit him. Maybe it’s a good thing he wasn’t let into the Police Academy.
Furthermore he was standing there with one of the neighbors that came out right after it happened & he didn’t know. Yeah ok. Oh i guess Trayvon was just lying there b/c Zimmerman beat him up so bad. Oh wait that’s right Trayvon was the one winning the fight to the point Zimmerman was afraid for his life and shot him remember. Wow, the police even know his story doesn’t make sense. They just don’t want to admit they screwed up. But hey I’m sure you believe Zimmerman was just being the upstanding citizen he is and doing his duty.
I’m not sure what you mean by point blank range but the testimony today was that ACCORDING TO BALLISTICS Trayvon was on top of George hitting him when he was shot. They know this because of the way the bullet pierced the hoodie. They can tell that the hoodie was falling forward away from Trayvon’s body with a gap between the shirt and his chest. The trajectory of the bullet was up.
As for no knowing he was dead from one bullet, Trayvon sat up straight after being shot and stopped hitting him. He did not die immediately. The time between the police arriving and the shot being fired was very short. GZ attention was then on explaining to the police that he had a holstered firearm, that he had shot Trayvon in self defense, etc.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Tamara Tattles
Agreed, TT. Also, has anyone dared mention that GZ only shot ONCE? He didn’t empty the clip into TM, which may also point to no intent to kill. GZ also didn’t pull out his gun and shoot TM while they were both standing up before TM threw the first punch.
Wow I can’t believe how many of you think this case is a waste! Are you serious?? I bet you wouldn’t feel that way if it was your child that was innocently walking down the street and then killed by some person who assumed he was doing something wrong! Maybe u also found the knock knock joke funny and appropriate too.
The main problem for Zimmerman that none of the testimony has changed is that he got out of that car with the mindset that Trayvon was doing something wrong and he was going to do something about it regardless of what he was told by the dispatchers. Which is why he continued to follow him and got out of his car with his gun cocked and ready.
Please explain to me how a grown man who studied martial arts is scared of a teenager walking down the street not even bothering him?? Especially when he’s the one following him and armed with a gun. Not to mention he could’ve stayed in his car. Please also explain to me why he didn’t identify himself as neighborhood watch? Based on what he said and the way he was talking on the tape i highly doubted that he approached Trayvon in a calm manner. It’s also pretty strange that Zimmerman doesn’t remember how Trayvon got on top of him of him, but he remembers so many other so called exact details about the fight for his life.
His story has a lot of wholes in it and thinks that don’t make sense. Like him getting out because he didn’t know street names that he walks all the time and is neighborhood watch for. Yeah I buy that one.
I didn’t bother to check my writing before submitting so yes there are spelling errors.
I don’t think you really want people to explain this to you…
Yes I do, please try because it makes no sense.
A grand jury just convicted this Angela Cory (I think that is her name) state’s attn. for withholding evidence from GZ’s lawyers.
peachteacher, that’s HUGE. I had no idea of the machinations going on. Right now, O’Mara is crossing the ME, who had some “issues” in a previous job and I think was working for Corey in this.
Sunny, I think the case was important for TM’s parents as they needed to hear the facts/evidence of the case. I only learned while reading this morning that President Obama and Eric Holder made comments on this case which I believe was uncalled for and added a totally new dimension to this trial.
I can answer a couple of your questions from testimony I have heard, though, honestly, hearing the facts of the case will probably not change your mind.
First, GZ said he did not have the time to inform TM who he was before TM hit him. TM got on top of GZ because GZ lost his balance and fell backwards. It was reported that TM hit GZ over 20 times in a very short time, as well as slamming his head on a concrete sidewalk. And I do think GZ was probably very calm as he seems to have a very laid back personality. No one knows what was going on in GZ’s mind but there had been several break-ins in the area, one two weeks before, and he was head of the neighborhood watch and took that job seriously and he thought TM was suspicious, since according to GZ, TM was standing/walking slowly when it was pouring down raining. He was headed back to his vehicle when he was told not to follow TM.
Also, I don’t think GZ studied martial arts. He did aerobic MMA, which is definitely different from studying martial arts.
President Obama has nothing to do with this case. So what if he commented on it. The out cry from the community and people all across the country is what made the difference The fact that you even bring him up shows me where your head is at.
I listened to Zimmerman’s walkthrough as well as he his interview with the police and it doesn’t make sense. How nice of him to have such a laid backed personality after he created this whole incident with his incompetency, which resulted in the death of an innocent child. There is not one shred of evidence that Trayvon was doing anything wrong!
Zimmerman didn’t sound calm or laid back on those taped phone calls. MMA stands for mixed martial arts. Zimmerman isn’t credible as he even lied about what he was instructed to do, but hey go on believing everything he says. Thank goodness the tapes exist. I can see why his lawyers didn’t want them to be introduced as evidence.
Sunny, I think it’s improper for the president of the United States to comment on any trial as it could show bias, and who knows, could perhaps be a reason for an appeal. Why comment on one trial and not on all? I thought it very unprofessional for both he and Holder. Hope that clears up where you think my mind was.
Sounds to me that you are too emotional about this trial and cannot allow the facts to speak to you. That’s why I said I would explain but I knew you would not believe any testimony as emotion always overrules fact, IMHO! Actually, GZ was glad that someone video taped his testimony and walk through. I did not think he sounded excited or angry when he spoke to non-emergency.
As sad as it is, if it is proven, the one thing TM did wrong was attack GZ. I agree that GZ should have stayed in his vehicle and allowed the police to investigate. And should not have had a gun but that’s neither her nor there at this point.
Who reported that GZ was hit over 20 times? However, there are no eye witnesses to the altercation. Has someone testified that TZ was sitting on GZ when he was shot or GZ was on the ground and TZ was lunging at him when he was shot?
OH!! You are not watching the trial. Now I see why you don’t understand the case. Yes there was an eye witness. He testified that TM was on top of GZ in a “pound and ground”. He called out to them trying to get them to stop. He called 911.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Tamara Tattles
@ Tamara – i didn’t say he died immediately. You should probably do some research on hollow tip bullets & how lethal they are when it comes to getting shot with one. Then tell me if you still think it’s possible that he could shoot Trayvon that closely and think he was going to survive that. Especially given Zimmerman’s background. If your listening objectively it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that his story doesn’t add up. I didn’t even need the forensic testimony today. It’s obvious he was lying about how things happened & exagerrating his injuries.
Additionally, Zimmerman might be a psycopath if he could be involved in an unplanned fight with a teenager in which he feared for his life and resulted in him killing a child all while keeping such a calm demeanor afterwards. Where was this calm demeanor on the phone calls beforehand?
I thought he sounded calm on the phone before. His screams during the fight sounded like he needed help.
He didn’t kill a child.
A teenager, who was physically larger than GZ, was killed after he attacked GZ.
Trayvon is not a child. The years of childhood end at 12.
I was surprised at some of the things I read this morning. There were so many changes made before this case came to trial. Such as, the police chief of Sanford temporarily stepped down in March of 2012 as his presence was a distraction to this investigation. He was fired in June of 2012 but no reason was given. I probably could have searched and found the reason.
State attorney Norm Wofinger recused himself from this case, as well.
Detective Chris Serino was taken off this case and now has Jose Baez representing him. Anyone know what that is about?
GZ’s first attorneys were dismissed.
Judge Lester was also dismissed from this case.
Also, the fact that President Obama and Eric Holder made comments on this case definitely added political clout to it.
And the New Black Panther Party offered a $10,000 reward for the ‘capture’ for GZ, as though Zimmerman was on the run!
BTW, back in March the defense team said their preliminary witness list consisted of 134 people. I wonder if they feel the need to call that many now?
Very interesting Rose. I can understand why no one wanted to touch this thing. There is a book I am reading about guns and gun safety. So many SMART tips to avoid ever using a firearm and how to stay safe. The author also suggests that you do not even discuss having to use your firearm until you have lawyered up. But he also says that there are many who should never own a gun. (i am reading this for education before i even think of getting a gun—-definately not while living with a precious, suicidal kid, but one day. ) Many strategies that are discussed are so smart and safer. One includes using tactical flashlights that can blind a perp so you can run. Then there’s pepper spray.
Whoever said that perhaps Rachel may be feeling horribly guilty is probably right. That poor child was on the phone with TM, and perhaps inadvertently egging him on. I pray for her Peace, and also for TM’s family. As well, when this is over, I hope that TM’s family will publically voice a need for staying calm in all this. HLN , particularly NG are fueling a fire here, IMO.
Sunny, Rose did a good job trying to explain. Now, GZ knows it was a kid who was unarmed, but then he did not. If only……..so many things, including:
neighborhood watch people made rounds in groups and without firearms.
Of course, GZ had his firearm on the way to the store in the dark evening…………also, TM had THC in his system so perhaps was stoned It has been a LONG time, but i only remember weed making me be giggly, goofy and hungry. (i could imagine me walking rather aimlessly in the rain under the influence, but not having aggression—–but, yes, too, paranoia sometimes.) The neighborhood had recently had a few break-ins………….not rapes, armed robberies or homicides. I dunno (again, so many “if onlys”…..)
Doc, I agree that perhaps a neighborhood watch should make rounds with at least two people and w/o firearms. Pepper spray is a good idea. GZ said he had a flash light that didn’t work so a watch group needs to make sure they have flashlights that work!
I hope and pray there will be no problems that come about because of this trial but I fear if GZ is found not guilty there are already plans made for riots, etc. There are some political figures who seem to always bring out the race card and stir people up instead of trying to calm the waters.
Being from the south, my son and g’sons hunt but have to take hunter safety courses before they can get a hunting license. Having had those courses, I still worry about them when they go hunting. I lecture them every time they are preparing for a hunting trip and remind them how one careless action can change all our lives forever. I really hate guns.
So why aren’t the Black Panthers called vigilantes?
Tamara, have you heard that Fla. law doubles the jail time for anyone found guilty of killing someone under the age of 18? Judge Alex Ferrer said this on O’Reilly last night and that if GZ is found guilty of manslaughter he will still serve a very long sentence.
I tried to search for that information his morning but couldn’t deal with reading so much stuff I didn’t understand.
Sandra, I have seen statements on social media like “the state is purposely blowing this case to let the white guy free” that comment made by someone who thinks Gz is guilty. “The state is doing amazing job of showing Gz as a racist”.
I am white my husband is African American and I have personally witnessed him being racially profiled. I have gone into this trial removing all information I have heard prior and just watching information in trial to make my decision. Personally from what I have listened to in the trial alone I think so far most of the testimony has backed up the claim of self defense. My husband is not watching the trial and we had a very heated debate about the case the other day. He has only heard the news coverage of the trial and his belief is that Gz is racist and killed Tm in cold blood.
I have huge fears about what is going to happen after this case ends. My husbands comment was that something like the Rodney king riots will happen if he is found not guilty.
I hear you and I understand. Have you experienced any backlash regarding your marriage, and has your husband as well? I can’t believe that this is still happening in this millennium.
PS I don’t mean the marriage! I mean the attitudes!
I was just about to post on what Rose said above. Judge Alex former policeman, TV star, & good looking guy (to me) said last night that if GZ is convicted of manslaughter he will be sentenced to 15 years which will be doubled to 30 years b/c TM was under 18. I actually heard lawyers, including Martin family attorney, discuss this case last night without ANY shouting. Greta did a great job last night and I know she must have had a lot of time to study law cause she couldn’t have had a real big social life in college.
PEACH!!!!
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Tamara Tattles
What can I say? Besides which, I must be having a new hormone cycle for older women since 2 of my posts have had me commenting on good looking men. The heart wants what the heart wants even @ 64. 🙂
I hear you on that Peach! I’m 54, and on the first day of opening arguments when Prosecutor John Guy (who should be on the cover of Hot, Sexy, Handsome Lawyer Magazine) said “Those FUCKING PUNKS” to the jury, it kind of turned me on, in that bad girl kind of way 😛 What can I say? It’s been way too long since I had some of THAT!
I think it was the combination of his Air Force fighter pilot looks, the suit, and his intense, deep voice when he said it, that kind of made my day. Ooooo, he looks all “straighten up and fly right”, but I bet he’s a very naughty boy with the right prompting. I’d just like to bite the buttons off his shirt, mess up his hair, and dress him up like a cowboy. I bet he’d look super hot in a white shirt and old blue jeans. Am I right ladies?
ROFLMAO peach!!!! yep, it was the OJ case that made both Greta and Nancy Grace
I guess I missed a lot yesterday. The investigator, Serino?, looked pretty good for the prosecution today. To me anyway. He seems like he thinks George is guilty of something. A couple of times he got an opinion in even when O’Mara was questioning him.
BTW, if I am ever arrested I am so getting O’Mara for my attorney. He can work wonders with a cross examination.
I’ve only seen part of the friends testimony. They’re trying to look for inconsistencies/lies in George’s story to everyone.
I don’t understand “Hear say”, when I watch Judge Judy (hush! I would love to be able to talk to people the way she does.) she will never let anyone talk about what someone else said. Even when it is said directly to them. This trial is all about what people said to other people. I understood when it was Rachel on what Trayvon said to her because he’s not here to tell it but now all of Georges words to everyone are allowed. Has Judge Judy been schooling me wrong?
Hearsay is VERY complicated. IDGI most of the time and see your point.
Also, I have been out in the WORLD!!!!!! AMONGST LIVING PEOPLE. It was enjoyable.
I did see some this morning and the prosecution was doing a much better job and I think the lead detective got an ass reaming for yesterday. He’s a lot more helpful to the prosecution today. This is the best day the prosecution has had INMO.
Who is this woman? Is she THE medical examiner? or someone that the state hired to testify? I just walked in but she seems difficult. And evasive.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Tamara Tattles
She is a medical examiner brought in by the state to testify as to GZ’s injuries. She is not the ME who did TM autopsy. That ME will most likely be testifying soon.
DID she ever treat or see GZ? Why would a medical examiner be talking about a living person’s injuries?
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Tamara Tattles
So the original ME was removed from the case? Since TM is dead and no eye witness, the best they can do is someone equally qualified to examine pictures and senarios to access what they think happened. GZ does not have to testify.
No, the ME is talking about GZ injuries. I am unclear on exactly why when they already called the people who actually treated him. It’s weird that a ME is testifying about a living person who they never saw.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Tamara Tattles
That ME, Dr. Rao was a terrible witness. First of all she only looked at pictures of Zimmerman’s injuries and decided from those that his head was only in contact with concrete 3 times. I can see the bumps, bruising and abrasions on my TV but she couldn’t see them on the original pictures.
She was brought in with the special prosecutor to prove there was a case of Murder 2 after the Sanford team didn’t have enough evidence for charges.
Her testimony was so perjurious she should probably lose her job.
I found myself yelling at the tv when the ME said “that’s just the shape of his head” when they were discussing the large swellings on his head.
imagine if GZ did not have such a buzz haircut……….without shaving his head it would be even more difficult to show the lumps and bump
Just heard a phone-in caller on HLN suggest that they now shave GZ’s head and compare it to the photographs. Seriously???
Keep updating on witnesses if you can. Did Trayvon’s mom take the stand to identify his voice yet?
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Tamara Tattles
Is it weird to just me that Gina Marie, the biggest bigot on BB this season has the last name of Zimmerman? No relation, but weird coincidence.
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/03/consequences-begin-for-bigots-in-big-bigot-house/Please see link.
Who would believe her? All witnesses and even statements made by GZ BEFORE any suggestion was made to “analyze” the identity of the voice, stated that it was GZ screaming for help. All this stuff about it being TM came much later.
TT, Zimmerman is also Bob Dylan’s real name… and probably a lot of other people who aren’t bigots. Including George.
I can think of a lot worse surnames… historically speaking.
The defense attorney is very thorough! He is not planning to put his client on the stand.
TT, I was thinking the same thing about the ME. There is no way pictures of injuries would reveal as much as seeing GZ in person. The PA actually did see him in person the day the after the shooting and she admitted seeing the bruises, etc.
The address being on the door or doorway area may present a problem for GZ’s defense. However, if there was no porch light on, perhaps he couldn’t see the house number.
Someone asked where I heard that TM had hit GZ over 20 times. That was said during the detective’s testimony yesterday. It was mentioned again on HLN a few minutes ago.
I think they said something like there were 12 or 14 screams on the 911 recording. that would go along with the theory that there were as many hits.
What do you all think about GZ’s criminal justice courses being brought into evidence?
I’m thinking that if Zimmerman knew so much from those courses he’d have known better than to talk to the detectives and do walk-throughs without asking for an attorney. I hope that if his school work gets in O’Mara will be sure to point that out.
In as few words as possible, can anyone give me a synopsis of witnesses today and what they added of value?
I wanted to share an event of this day………….involving what i do think is racial profiling:
I had a nice young (early to mid-20’s) black guy come to clinic (is it ok to say black or am i supposed to say AA???) He has 2 pit bulls who never had Rabies vaccines and one young (6 months)……other older (2 years?)….the “popo” came by his house w/warrant for a sib who was deliquent in child support………armed with GSD (german shepherd dog) Well, story goes this kid got $4000+ in fines for non-vaccinated and also ‘cruelty” as dogs were tied out and spilled their H2O when reacting to GSD. This kid was so sweet and upset but joking about his fines. We gave the Rabies vaccs and, (BTW, TT), the one dog he said was aggressive was a sweet baby who liked my treats. (enter Banjo) But here’s the thing….i see alot of aggressive dog issues with less-than-ideal situations and non-vaccinated…….the majority of these (owned by what we crackers down here might call “white trailer trash” or another word) and i have YET to ever see such fines ever given for the same thing! Kinda pissed me off and i told the guy to have them call me if problems. This guy was sweet, so were dogs………..and his brother who is in on military leave (who i thanked profusely for protecting us while teasing him about staying inside truck while it was raining). Such a nice guy. I am a bit angered about this……………did not say so much about except, “if i can do something to help the fine, please let me know”. But neither of these guys were bitter or angry……they knew should have done shots………….and the water thing is disputable. Great people, great attitude. I plagiarize again: “why can’t we all just get along?”
One last thought here……………if GZ understood hollow-points (and i bet he did), he was likely like anyone else who doesn’t deal with the acute trauma aspect of medicine and may have thought that if it hit, TM would have been down automatically, end of story. That poor kid was shot, dying, held down until someone came out of their home and then, IMO, put his hands under his chest to his wound which hurt like hell. Scene ends…………..I repeat, God help us all. How utterly tragic………
but no less tragic than the mom in GA whose little baby was shot in head and killed by 2 kids who tried to rob her…………or a guy who was recently gunned down in a drive-by by some gangbangers…………just sayin’
Serino was recrossed and did get to say he thought there were inconsistencies but nothing major.
George’s BFF, who rote a book about being America’s Most Hated Man’s BFF, said George told him Trayvon grabbed the gun, Trayvon was straddling him with his knees at GZ’s waist and armpits. I think those were the only inconsistencies there. GZ’s friend seems nice but sweats a lot.
They showed the clip of George on Shawn Hannity. Probably to say his story changed and because he said he didn’t know anything about the Stand Your Ground Law.
Dr. Roa, Jacksonville’s medical examiner said GZ’s injuries were minor and not consistant with the beating GZ described. She’s a “hired gun”, imo.
They argued about allowing GZ’s transcripts and course work into court. Specifically a Criminal investigation class and a Legal Something class, having to do with stand your ground and to know what to do and say to the investigators.
I think that’s it.
Oops, the latent finger print lady was on too. She said there were no prints on the gun. that was to disprove TM touched it.
That was all for you Docwall.
muchas gracias, Bendy!!
Hmph! Now SHE is your favorite? SIGH. 🙂
Thanks Bendy. I missed a ton today too. Banjo is needy and I had to participate in the world today.
I just heard Jinkaraus say on NG that no prints were found on the gun…not even GZ’s. Shoddy police work, do you think? NG is going on and on and on about the ME today saying the wounds on the back of GZ’s head were not life threatening. A doctor said a lot of force was needed to inflict even those wounds and mentioned hitting your head on concrete to see…or something along those lines! I laughed! I wouldn’t have watched NG as long as I did but I was painting a cabinet in my bathroom!! For some reason I thought the reporters on HLN and whatever NG’s title is are suppose to be objective!
I think NG is about to strike out, or her head will explode. I wonder what ended her career as “the world’s most feared prosecutor”, or however she billed herself on the “behind Bars” fiasco.
“STROKE” out! Heat is getting to me…
Nancy Grace.is never objective. She chooses a side and she builds the case. She is usually on the side of the victim.
I just finished my morning walk with an ER doctor. She isn’t watching the trial but caught the news and saw a snip of the ME’s testimony. She said it struck her as odd that this ME could tell the head injuries were not life threatening from pictures. A picture can not show the extent of a possible closed head injury.
Wow Peach, I had not heard that about Angela Cory being convicted for withholding evidence. I’m off to hunt that information down! Thanks for sharing.
Just to help — grand juries don’t convict. They indict.
I looked into this. It’s not a “real” indictment from what I can tell. Citizens Grand Juries have no power at all to bring charges against anyone. It’s more like one of those right wing conspiracy type things from what my googling turned up. You know like 911 was a government conspiracy or Obama isn’t a US citizen…
Let us know what you find! Curiouser and curiouser…
Rica, thanks for the correction.
Florida State’s Attorney Angela Corey has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury, convening in Ocala, Florida, over the alleged falsification of the arrest warrant and complaint that lead to George Zimmerman being charged with the second degree murder of African-American teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida
The indictment of Corey, which was handed down last week (see http://www.citizensgrandjury.com), charges Corey with intentionally withholding photographic evidence of the injuries to George Zimmerman’s head in the warrant she allegedly rushed to issue under oath, in an effort to boost her reelection prospects. At the outset of this case, black activists such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who whipped up wrath against Zimmerman, demanded that he be charged with murder, after local police had thus far declined to arrest him pending investigation.
Following Corey’s criminal complaint charging Zimmerman, legal experts such as Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz condemned her for falsely signing an arrest affidavit under oath, which intentionally omitted exculpatory evidence consisting of the photographs showing the injuries Zimmerman sustained, and rushing to charge him with second degree murder under political pressure. Dershowitz called her actions unethical and themselves crimes
Ironically, Corey will now be tried and likely convicted for her alleged crimes – which resulted in Zimmerman being charged under false pretenses, now coming home to roost during Zimmerman’s on-going trial. Corruption cannot be tolerated, particularly by law enforcement officers who are elected by the people to serve their ends, not the law enforcement officer’s political ends.”
Yes, but will the jury hear about this?
PS: And talk about vigilante – ism!
I’ll bet they won’t, but if he’s found guilty this is an appeal waiting for them.
So that’s what the super secret sidebar was about yesterday! The news guys were saying they were having a side bar after court that must have been a big deal since there is almost nothing that is not public in Florida trials. The judge was all smiley from what I could see.
I just read that a ‘citizen grand jury’ has no real power to indict so I’m a bit confused about this article, especially since it states that she will be tried and likely convicted for her alleged crimes. Any of you legal eagle out there understand this?
I have wondered since all this happened why in the world with such a serious charge GZ would hire Mark O’Mera (sp) who is so calm and appears to have a bit of a speech impediment. I no longer wonder. That man can cross examine any witness and he hasn’t even started with his witnesses yet. Bet he can pick a chicken carcass clean.
Peach, I could not watch the first day of the trial because it was so slow. I thought the defense team were duds but once O’Mara started to cross I thought, “wow, this guy is skilled!” I really enjoy his cross examinations as he digs and pulls and digs some more to get his points across!
I too have been very impressed with him. He always seems to be working for the answer to a question that’s about 3 questions away.
I loved when he gotcha-ed the ME about the sidewalk having more than one surface that could have come into contact with Zimmerman’s head. You could see she had never considered anything other than a flat surface.
I never watched the opening statements, I forgot to set the dvr. I’m wondering if they would have made a difference as to how I am interpreting the testimony.
Yes, compared to Mr. O’Mara and Mr. West, the prosecution team comes across somewhat hysterical (not in the “funny” sense) and desperate.
Tamara you said there was witness that said TM was banging GZ’s head about 20 times, but the witness did not witness the shooting. Is that the person who called 911?
I’m not sure if the eyewitness gave a number of hits. He was on with 911 when GZ shot Trayvon. His last name is Good or Goode I think. You should be able to google his testimony.
Sorry I haven’t been following that closely today. Bad weather, sick dog, sick me…etc. Bendy is really good with the information here. She may be able to help.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Tamara Tattles
John Good is the closest person to the scene. He testified to winessing altercation, which, at a certain point included seeing guy in gray or black on top of guy wearing red. He was quite credible and i think that, frankly, the prosecution has not alot to work with. I do not think they are intentionally sabotoging the case, just they are doing the best that they can with what they have to work with… IMO, this is pitiful and should never have gotten past grand jury. (enter Angela Cory or whatever the name is who did what she did with Grand Jury) in comes rain here………..and today was just another day of no big discovery as far as i see…………except, TM blood on limited areas on GZ, which were suggestive of being supportive of GZ story of how it all went down.
Yeh, what Docwall said.
Two witnesses saw TM on top with hands moving downward, Jeannee Monalo and John Good, both called 911. Neither saw any blows connect or any actual head banging due to the angles and low visibility.
This morning the judge allowed George’s school records and two of his professors testified.
One was a JAG who taught one class that had a lot of discussion concerning self defense and Castle law. Cross exam revealed they didn’t use the book and that stand your ground is a nic name for the extended Castle law. Cross examination got this witness to testify about self defense and how you don’t need any bodily injury to fear for your life. He also touched on imperfect self defense.
The second was an online course where again the book was not used, the instructor had transcripts of the discussions and looked through them. He was asked if the “how to testify” chapter had been covered in the course and it was not.
There was also a witness that stated GZ applied for a job at a police dept. in VA. He only had the records that he had destroyed the original job application in 2009. George didn’t get the job because of credit issues?
Also there was one request to ride along with the Sanford PD in 2010. Defense will bring this back up later for sure. All this testimony was to prove GZ was a frustrated cop wannabe.
Later in the day we got the weapons expert who described how the gun Zimmerman carries had no external safety and he had it fully loaded with one in the chamber. Cross exam revealed that is how it is usually carried and it has an internal safety and an extra long pull for the trigger which makes it safe to carry that way. She also did the ballistics testing on the hoodie and sweat shirt stating the gun was in contact with the material when fired.
DNA guy was next, I think. This was tedious and I do not know if it proved anything. The hoodie had 3 stains on it. Two were positive for blood and only one tested for Trayvon’s DNA. The other was inconclusive.
The under sweatshirt had several places that tested + for blood, some with DNA of Trayvon, one with Zimmerman DNA, many inconclusive.
Zimmerman’s Red jacket had Zimmerman blood and DNA, 3 spots with a possible mixture of GZ and TM DNA and 1 possible spot with blood on the cuff of the right hand that could not rule out TM DNA. Shirt had GZ blood and DNA.
The gun had GZ dna on the grip, inconclusive mix that couldn’t exclude GZ or TM on the shaft and no dna on the trigger. The holster had GZ and a mix that couldn’t exclude TM on it. Skittles bag had blood and Trayvon dna.
TM fingernail scrapings had TM dna and blood on the right and no dna of either on the left.
West got a spanking for wanting to take Friday off to depose Crump. ME that did autopsy and TM’s mom should testify Friday and the prosecution will rest their case.
Long grueling day of technical stuff that I have no idea if it will make a difference to either side.
Thank you soooooo much Bendy. You are my favorite.
Good summary!
Can I just say that Frank Taffee (sp?) is the hardest working man on television. He is on every HLN show, one after the other, given great latitude even by NG. Great friend or media whore?
both. but I’d want him in my corner.
So, I read and heard some interesting gossip about some upcoming events in the GZ/TM trial. I have no idea if this is fact or not. Someone from GZ’s family/friends is going to accuse him of sexual abuse of a child, TM’s family lawyer, Ben Crump, is supposed to be deposed, maybe over the weekend, by Mark O’Mara but he keeps slipping and sliding away, RJ was not the original witness # 8 and Crump’s deposition is suppose to prove this. I hope you all have a great 4th. I am grateful to have grown up in the USA. I still believe we are the best last hope for the world.
Where did you read/hear the allegations of abuse?
let’s not even start that sort of rumor here please.
Any allegations would have to be proven by accuser. No relevance to current trial. Seriously suspicious that someone would come out of the woodwork just as the trial hits national coverage. Fifteen minutes of fame, National Inquirer, Dateline…
Shades of Jodi Arias and her allegations about Travis Alexander.
Just waiting for someone to bring gas cans into evidence…
(Casey Anthony, Jodi Arias…. George Zimmerman?)
This sounds like ridiculous gossip.
Some of you on this board a truly sick individuals. Sadly you think others can’t see through your fake claim of being objective. Whoever made the distinction between Trayvon being a teenager and not a child is one sick puppy! You don’t fool me. Trayvon wasn’t old enoug to vote, by cigarrettes or sign an apartment lease on his own. Whether he was a teenager or not he was still a child and not an adult like Zimmerman. It’s almost comical that despite the many lies Zimmerman has been caught telling you still believe what he says. This dude even said if he knew things would turn out this way he still would’ve gotten out of his car. He actually believes it was God’s will that he killed an unarmed kid that was just walking down the street. How you can defend that is beyond me. Truly disturbing! You want to blame Obama, Trayvon, and even Rachel for what happened, but Zimmerman. Oh well this type of ugliness usually isn’t limited to the internet. So you will reap what you sew no matter how you try to hide your true colors.
Find that love in your heart, girl. I’m sure it’s buried somewhere in there. Just because some people do not believe that GZ is guilty of murder in the second degree and may have acted in self-defense do not make them “sick” or lacking in objectivity or “ugly”. Oh, and it’s “reap what you sow”. So you go sow whatever it is that you want to reap and find that love, girl, wherever it resides in your heart and soul.
Sunny, i do not think there is a soul on this blog who sees what happened as anything less than a horrible tragedy. But just because they interpret evidence, statements, witnesses differently than you do does not make them bad or evil, etc. You know what they say about opinions, and we all bring our life expeiences to our objectivity on some level. So, for example, if i am bound and determined that GZ is the worst-conceived vigilante (based on what?), then i could easily call out all he says as lies. I think the reason TT was supportive of doing this blog, after much hesitation, was because people like to compare notes and interpretations. Your views are valid. You are entitled to all of them. I do not think that a blanket lashing out at anyone who has different opinion does much for dialogue or swaying opinion thus far………good argument has facts. I hope for you-Peace. I mean this sincerely. “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”
“Projection makes perception” (from ACIM)
Sunny, Who threw the first punch? Who was the attacker? Who caused the head injuries?
“Innocent boy”? Hardly.
What if it were your son being attacked, and acted in self-defense to save his own life?
Sunny. I really am trying to listen to the trial with an open mind but people who think Trayvon is a choir boy and did nothing wrong really irritate me. I’m sure GZ wishes he had not gotten out of his truck that night. Did he break any law by exiting his truck? NO. Even if the dispatcher told him not to, he was not breaking any law. When did GZ say it was God’s will that he killed someone that night? He told the policewoman that it was against God’s law to kill anyone. If you were listening to the trial, you would have heard that. TM may be too young to buy cigarettes as you say but apparently he wasn’t too young to have a Baggie with marajuana residue in his backpack. I do believe that was one reason he was suspended from school. And Obama needs to really think before he makes comments that are inflammatory. He’s supposed to be president of all. He should let the Justice system do its job. He has a job to do when he’s not on vacay.
I have plenty of love in my heart. I just know what I see people hiding behind. Furthermore I said some of you and not all. I didn’t make that assumption only based on people who believe Zimmerman isn’t guilty. I made it based on comments that people have made and even cited a specific example.
As far as who threw the first punch there is no evidence, you all are just taking Zimmerman’s word for it. Bravo to you for pointing out my spelling mistakes, I had plenty more in case that adds anything to your argument.
I called Trayvon innocent because in this particular situation where he lost his life he hasn’t been proven to be doing anything wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and spotted by the wrong person. Zimmerman was already calling Trayvon names and associating him with crimes before he even got out of his car. Have any of you even once considered what Trayvon might have been feeling? A strange man is following him at night for blocks and doesn’t even identify himself as being neighborhood watch. For all you know he could have been scared for his life. Oh, but since he smokes weed he had to have thrown the first punch like Zimmerman said. You probably don’t even care that Zimmerman lied about knowing the Stand your ground law or anything else he’s been caught lying about. Trayvon was supposedly beating Zimmerman so bad that he needed to use deadly force yet he had no bruising on his knuckles. Let’s not even go into the fact that Zimmerman has assaulted a police officer before or had a restraining order taken out on him. Oh no Trayvon was taller and smoked weed so he has to be guilty of everything Zimmerman alleged.
I don’t need to guess what Zimmerman wishes he had done. He told Bill O’Reilly in his interview that he woudln’t have done anything differently even knowing what he knows now. He stated he believed it was God’s plan. This interview was also entered in as evidence and played for the jury, but maybe you didn’t see it because you’ve already decided that Zimmerman isn’t guilty. He wouldn’t change anything it was God’s plan for him to kill a teenager that was just walking down the street unarmed. That sure sounds like someone acting in self defense. Especially combined with the names he was already calling Trayvon before he got out the car. Sure, whatever makes you feel good!
Sunny, first of all thank you for returning. I know you must feel like you are in enemy territory here and you are not. I value your opinion.
I know that many here will address your points. I will only address one for now. And I am speaking for myself only. Trayvon had no injuries at all according to the medical examiner other than the gunshot wound. For me that means that George was not only hit first, but that he was as he said knocked to the ground by Travyon’s first punch and as the eye witness testifies was getting quite the beating, which he described as “ground and pound.” My belief that Trayvon began the fight has nothing to do with his race, his pot smoking, his previous history of fighting, the photos of guns and fights found on his phone, etc. I am basing this strictly off the evidence submitted in court.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Tamara Tattles
The rain knocked out cable here. May I assume that the motion to dismiss was denied? Was Zimmerman’s mom the first witness? I love Zimmerman’s uncle? who was supposed to say something like “I do” or “Yes ” upon taking the oath said, HELP ME GOD! 🙂
Thanks Tamara, I appreciate your response. I’m not worried about anybody on this board and what they think about me. I also want you to know that I wasn’t putting you in the category of sick people. In my opinion that fight could have gone so many different ways. George Zimmerman could have grabbed Trayvon and lost the upperhand. The only thing that is clear is that there was a struggle and Trayvon was on top at some point. For me there are too many things that go against logic for me to believe George Zimmerman. Some people think that Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because of his race and I have no idea if that’s the case. For me I think Zimmerman has displayed signs of being a psycho and I’m not sure that situation wouldn’t have happened to anyone walking down the street at that time. We don’t know what was in his system for that matter. It’s also clear based on his own words that he didn’t see Trayvon as anything other than a trouble maker, which is why he was still calling him a suspect when interviewed by the police. Suspect of what crime? Unfortunately, the police handled this case poorly. Which is why there was so much outrage surrounding this case to begin with.
I don’t know if you noticed, but Zimmerman has had a blank look on his face for most of this trial. Yet his facial expression while Trayvon’s brother was testifying was pretty intense as if he had a reaction to him.
How do you feel about Zimmerman saying he wouldn’t have changed anything?
Okay, I am going to take this point by point since the trial ended and I need a break from the juror blog I am working on. 🙂
“In my opinion that fight could have gone so many different ways. George Zimmerman could have grabbed Trayvon and lost the upperhand. The only thing that is clear is that there was a struggle and Trayvon was on top at some point. For me there are too many things that go against logic for me to believe George Zimmerman.”
I agree that there are many possibilities. The prosecution rested it’s case today and did not, to my recollection present any other possibilities. They did try to poke holes (with some minor success) in GZ’s story, but they did not provide an alternate explanation. I assume that is because the eyewitness testimony matched GZ’s recollection of events.
“Some people think that Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because of his race and I have no idea if that’s the case. ”
I have no doubt that GZ was suspicious (slightly different from targeting IMO) of Trayvon based on his race and age. There had been a recent arrest for one of the break-ins and the person arrested was a black male teen. Would he have been suspicious of a white teenager in the same situation? I don’t know, but I would venture to guess he likely would not have.
“For me I think Zimmerman has displayed signs of being a psycho and I’m not sure that situation wouldn’t have happened to anyone walking down the street at that time. We don’t know what was in his system for that matter. ”
I have observed GZ behaving as a “psycho.” The officers at the scene did not report that he was under the influence of anything. As someone who is applying for jobs in law enforcement, which requires criminal background tests and drug tests, it is doubtful that he takes illegal drugs, in my opinion. He was on his way to Target (perhaps to buy groceries as it was mentioned he goes every Sunday) and not on patrol at the time.
“It’s also clear based on his own words that he didn’t see Trayvon as anything other than a trouble maker, which is why he was still calling him a suspect when interviewed by the police. Suspect of what crime? ”
I agree. George suspected him of casing the neighborhood in order to rob later. He clearly stated to the police he thought he was “up to no good” based on his seeing him in between the homes rather than on the sidewalk.
“Unfortunately, the police handled this case poorly. Which is why there was so much outrage surrounding this case to begin with.”
Base on the prosecution’s case, it would seem it was handled appropriately in my opinion. Not every crime or suspected crime goes to court. The police must have enough evidence to support an arrest and prosecution. They did not have that. So they opted not to charge George. Then mass hysteria ensued in the media. Faced with cries of racism and massive protests, the state caved and went forward despite not having sufficient evidence.
“I don’t know if you noticed, but Zimmerman has had a blank look on his face for most of this trial. Yet his facial expression while Trayvon’s brother was testifying was pretty intense as if he had a reaction to him.”
I did not see this. And CNN has not replayed it. Only the mother’s. My understanding is that the brother was very emotional. If you assume that GZ shot TM in self-defense, it would stand to reason it would be emotional for George to hear from the family members. GZ is being reported to have teared up during the family testimony. Again, I have not seen it yet and the report was on HLN so….I take that with a grain of salt.
“How do you feel about Zimmerman saying he wouldn’t have changed anything?”
Is that what he said on the TV show? I thought it was more along the lines that he had to defend himself so he would not change that. Not that he did not wish it never happened. I have seen the tape don’t remember specifics.
Thanks again for explaining your thoughts.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Tamara Tattles
Correction I meant Sean Hannity & not O’Reilly. O’Reilly must have been on my mind for some reason.
O’Mara is holding a media conference (I’m on CNN) someone asked about “the most articulate” and why wasn’t he in court all week.
Crump has still not been deposed and they have three or so other witnesses also awaiting deposition.
He has not decided yet if George will take the stand.
(sorry, thought I sent this before I left to run an errand…)
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Tamara Tattles
I think the one thing that helped the defense on Wednesday was when West was asking the DNA expert about how the clothing was handled and packaged before it was tested. He said items that are wet should be air dried and stored in a brown paper bag. However, when he received the brown bags with the clothing items in for the Zimmerman case, the clothing was in plastic bags, were still wet and smelled like ammonia or mold…especially TM gray hoodie. He said that could cause the DNA to be disintegrate. I makes one wonder if there was sloppy police work at the scene.
HLN was going on and on tonight about the big bomb shell that the gun had no DNA from TM. I guess they didn’t listen too well to the expert or put much thought into the fact the rain more than likely affected all DNA, especially on the gun, as the expert said since it was a slick surface, DNA would not be absorbed.
I don’t think I’ll be able to watch when/if TM’s mom testifies.
@Rose, you noticed the mention of the stinky hoodie as well. Were the shirts not processed properly due to the fact that law enforcement did not plan for this case to go this far? Anybody with common sense knows that you do not place a wet item in a plastic bag and just leave it! When you do open, not only will you have a runny nose and watering eyes, they’ll be 8 shades of mold on the items. And, I don’t know why they didn’t process the gun using the superglue/heat method. Prints are normally pulled off smooth surfaces, makes me think the grip had a hatch pattern, and the holster would have protected some of the surfaces of the gun.
I agree, I don’t think the evidence was not properly handled or processed by the police because they assumed TM was guiltu of somthing and GZ’s seemed logical. It baffles me that on the JA trial, she said she was innocent and the prosecution went all out to show the public why they thought she did it and she was found guilty and people were outraged that the juru did not give her the death penalty. People wanted the victims familyto have justice and closure. In the GZ case, he said he shot him in self defense. His version of the story has been played over and over. I have yet to hear another version and none of the evidence supports anything. People just keep.saying there are slight differences in GZ’s story. I think people want to know what really happened, but I don’t think we will unless GZ takes the stand. What is TM’s story? I think TM’s family deserves closure too.
Kitty, [ok if I call you that?] the DNA expert had no explanation as to why the clothing were packaged that way. He said all clothing is usually packaged in a brown bag so the clothes can breath. I can’t think the policemen at the crime scene would make such a decision that the case would not go to trial. The folks doing the autopsy would be the ones to remove his clothes so perhaps the clothes were put in a plastic bag because they were so wet and they were just put into evidence like that. That’s what my common sense tells me..
You can absolutely call me kitty. I guess what I meant to say that if the investigator, or the people that collect the evidence made mistakes with the collection of the evidence. At least that’s the way it’s done on CSI. I still haven’t declared a minor/major yet – all this trial coverage almost makes me want to go into criminal forensics.
Kitty, I also meant to say that I did not think of using the super glue method on the gun but now that you mentioned it, it sounds like that is what should have been done. I’m sure they would have gotten more or better results and in such an important case, I don’t understand why that wasn’t done.
Rose, that’s why I feel the DNA evidence was inconclusive. Either side can try and make it work for them. But the fact remains that there was no DNA where you would absolutely expect some to be, GZ’s on the trigger because he absolutely shot the gun and TM’s own DNA under his finger nails because he absolutely has DNA and skin cells. This only proves the scene was compromised by the rain, poor evidence handling or both.
It will all depend on who the jury believes. I have seen where people think this DNA or lack of DNA absolutely proves GZ’s guilt and some say this absolutely proves his innocence.
I can not make a determination solely on the DNA evidence and believe it just muddies the waters.
Should we address the elephant in the media room? Whether it is CNN or the dreaded HLN, the commentary from guest lawyers falls almost entirely down racial lines. This means that as, Is it Sunny that is so angry? I think, sorry if I have the name wrong, that somewhere in all of Sunny’s hostility, we have to see that we are all seeing this through our own perceptions so to speak. (Sorry for not making sense, just waking up and dizzy from ear infection it seems)
I am trying very hard to rely on the evidence. But it seems like perceptions are clouded for everyone. We all seem to be coming at each other as if “if you don’t see what I see, you are racist, wrong, evil, stupid, not paying attention, biased, etc.”
I’m acutally pretty proud of us for TRYING to discuss this and hope that no matter the outcome we can all continue to get along and talk about stupid things like housewives and big brother without residual anger at each other.
Thanks to all for sharing their opinons and points of view. We are a good bunch even when we disagree.
Thank you for allowing us to have a forum that we can speak as adults (well, most of us). You are right, it does seem to be drawn down racial lines, and that’s a shame. I can’t discuss it at work just for that reason, and I try to be objective and open minded to both sides. Was George wrong to get out of the car? Possibly.. Was Travyon a troubled kid? Possibly… But it’s the evidence and the jury that will determine the outcome of this trial. Thanks for noting Sunny’s hostility, Bless Her Heart – she’s having a bad (delusional) day!
Hi TT. I didn’t start watching the trial until the first day of testimony, a week ago Monday. Didn’t even watch jury selection, or all the media/political hysteria leading up to the trial. Wasn’t even planning to watch the trial coverage, but here I am.
My opinion, so far, is that the prosecution does not have a lot to go on, even from the beginning. We all know TM was shot by GZ. But prosecution having a difficult time proving 2nd degree murder when evidence is heavily in favour of self-defense. Even prosecution witnesses and experts landing on the side of the defense.
Defense team systematically dismantling all prosecution “evidence” plank by plank. Even yesterday when prosecution was throwing a tantrum over wanting to include GZ’s school transcripts, course subjects, professors and various other bits of paper to prove their side. Defense calmly picking it all apart, defusing what the prosecution was hoping to be explosive proof of one sort or another.
Defense didn’t even bother to cross examine the first witness who was the college registrar. So he registered for college, big deal. If the defense didn’t give any importance to this witness, then neither would the jury. She was dismissed after answering about three questions posed by the prosecution.
The other 4 prosecution witnesses, the two profs and the two law enforcement officers didn’t offer anything the prosecution could use against GZ. In fact, the first prof who taught GZ the course on criminal law, came down firmly as a supporter of GZ. It was a defense win all around. The prosecution looked absolutely dejected.
Then the DNA evidence. Gun expert Amy Siewert really didn’t have much to offer the prosecution. The hope was to show no latent prints of TM on the gun. Hoping to prove TM didn’t grab the gun. Results? Inconclusive. Didn’t prove it one way or another. Maybe Amy hoping to land a date with hunky lawyer. BTW, has anyone noticed they only use him on the female witnesses? All the others are left for guppy-lipped lawyer and cheesy moustache lawyer. Or as Rachel Jeantel called him, “that bald dude”.
Prosecution was hoping that clothing DNA would be their big “gotcha’. After painfully going through stain by stain, which they had to do, all those charts with DNA results showed that yes, all the clothing had both sets of DNA and some inconclusive DNA. Was it supposed to prove second degree murder? Prosecution never really connected those dots.
Mr. West of the defense calmly and methodically went through the same stains and very professionally cross examined the DNA expert Mr. Gorgone. Prosecution popping up like jack-in-the-boxes every time defense hit it out of the park with one of their questions. Defense result was: there’s blood DNA from both GZ and TM, big hairy deal. Blood DNA was EXPECTED to be there and it was. GZ’s from being beaten and TM’s from being shot. Defense also hit home with the poor collection, handling and packaging of the clothing. Mr. Gorgone even agreed with defense that perhaps some of the stained areas should have been analyzed differently. Defense totally deflated prosecution balloon.
On re-direct, prosecution was totally unprofessional by demonstrating using a fist and hitting motion to direct a question about how blood got onto a cuff. Defense caught that one, and prosecution had to re-phrase and drop the theatrics. Good grief.
Can’t wait to see how the prosecution is going to present the autopsy evidence. And what the defense will do with it.
Just two things about all this racial rhetoric. So AA’s can use a list of racial slurs against everybody else as part of their “culture” (I don’t think it’s limited to whites), but use any derogatory word against them and it becomes a federal case?
And when it comes to President Obama, has everyone forgotten that his mother was white? That little fact seems to get lost when he is being discussed as the first AA president.
If it weren’t for the media hype and political pressure from special interest groups, I don’t think race would have been made into such a big deal. Maybe a genome mapping profile should be done on both TM and GZ and let’s just see what each person has in their ancestry. Betting it won’t be 100% AA for TM and GZ is probably a mixed bag too. So let’s just dial down all this race rhetoric and concentrate on the evidence, and your own opinion of it.
Have a happy and safe 4th!
Great summary, Sandra. I think you hit every point and I agree with everything you said!
BTW, I did not intend to watch the trial after the first day as I thought it was so slow but when I read comments here for a few days I found myself being pulled in.
I believe I remember some news story saying GZ’s mom in from Peru and her father is black. His dad is white.
So somebody please let HLN know so this racial nonsense can stop.
I’m not hostile I’m just calling a spade a spade. It’s funny to me that the choice as stated by Kitty who thinks I’m delusional is either George Zimmerman is wrong for gettting out the car or Trayvon is a troubled child. This is exactly why I made the comments I did and I stand behind them. You apparently have determined that it’s not possible that George Zimmerman was the troubled person in this situation. His only mistake was that he got out of the car. Despite all that he assumed about Trayvon prior to getting out the car and his reasons for getting out don’t add up either. Perhaps that’s because like Zimmerman you’ve made assumptions about Trayvon. Who gets out of the car to find the street name in the back of houses?
Yet you believe that Trayvon might have been troubled. Despite there being no evidence relevant to that night that suggested he was doing anything troubling other than walking down the street. If delusional is what you want to call me I will gladly wear that title with pride!
It was Zimmerman’s testimony to the police that he was on his way to Target as he does every (Sunday?) night and noted Trayvon going between the buildings. I believe that was what Zimmerman considered suspicious, that is that he was not staying on the side walk taking the most direct route to his destination but looking in between homes… Because the subdivision was on high alert after several recent breakins one of which resulted in the arrest of a black male teenager, he stopped his trip to complete his responsibilities as a neighborhood watchman.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Tamara Tattles
Bendy, I totally agree that the DNA evidence did not help either side and only muddied the water. When the expert said no DNA, not even his own was found under TM’s fingernails, I thought, “Now that’s crazy”! West was also able to get the DNA expert to say that he should have tested a couple of the areas separately instead of putting the test pieces together to get results. I think he was honest but maybe he didn’t do the best job with the DNA. And I didn’t understand why he only checked spots that tested as blood since he was checking for DNA. There were many other spots that he had circled that could have contained DNA. Some of the spots could have been saliva or mucus.
Rose, I thought that too, “negative for blood so I didn’t test it”. WHAT!?! Why not? What happened to all the touch DNA talk from last week?
PS: Nancy Grace hasn’t been hosting her show most of the week. Maybe she’s been hospitalized.
Maybe she did stroke out, or the producers got some of the backlash from her being so hostile to guests that don’t agree with her… Who knows, I used to kinda like her-not so much anymore. I don’t think it’s very professional to “choose” a side – and that’s exactly what she has done.
In defense of my homegirl, Nancy… Her show although on a “newslite network” is not Anderson 360 type show. It’s an opinion show. She is not reporting the news she is giving commentary on it from a former prosecutor’s perspective.
That said, her screeching a squealing and cutting off people’s mikes who disagree with her and her rude treatment of guests has gotten so out of hand I find her completely unwatchable. She rarely gives commenters on the defense’s side the opportunity to complete a sentence.
I don’t know who Beth K pissed off but if I were getting rid of someone it would be homegirl and not Beth. I think drama brings ratings and HLN is desperate.
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Tamara Tattles
Exactly Tamara! She’s a total mess! Maybe it’s time for some HRT therapy – it would help with her “moods”.
Yea, i live Beth alot…………i also usually like Jinkasauras…Nancy, i feel mixed over, even when i agree with me on some things. Of late, what i note on the part of almost all CNN and HLN commentators, (something i find commonplace with Nancy), is that they are somewhat misrepresenting what has actually transpired in testimony. Only partial info is shared and, if this were your only source ie: you have not watched testimony, then you are being swayed to draw conclusions based on half the information that the jurors got. I was quite in the know re: Casey Anthony and had researched alot in JA…….not so much in GZ case, so most what i am familiar with has been testimony (croakerqueen at youtube does standup job of making trials accessible.). Off and on all day today i am catching news that i find to be fairly inaccurate-ex: discuss prosecution question but omit the entire cross that either negated or minimized what actually went on………….geez………most of you guys already know this so i do not need to explain further, except for one more thought:
?Is it possible that NG decided to take that advice and go ahead and try the “head-to-the-concrete” suggestion?
Hey Doc, Couldn’t believe what I was hearing when NG actually said that the defense said that TM was armed with a weapon called a sidewalk!! And because TM had a weapon (according to defense) it was ok to shoot him. That is just one example of NG grossly misrepresenting evidence (to fit with her particular point of view).
Offhand, can’t remember some of the others, but equally as absurd.
Docwall, I’ve really taken note this past week how HLN doesn’t report both sides of the trial. When they kept talking about the big bombshell for the prosecution…no prints on the gun…was sort of the last straw for me watching them during the day or before I’ve heard the trial for myself. Absolutely no way can anyone watch HLN and be informed of what is really happening during this trial and they probably do the same with all trials. This just happens to be the second trial I have ever watched so didn’t realize that until this week.
Sandra, I was relieved the other night to find Jinkasarus doing her show. I enjoyed it very much. Maybe NG burst a blood vessel from her righteous indignation! LOL She is so rude and over bearing I don’t know how she gets anyone to be a guest on her show!!
Rose, Nancy signs off every night by saying, “Good night, friend.” I think she is speaking to me, since I may be the only friend she has left! I have watched (and dare I say, liked) NG for a long time so I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps, it’s the nature of this case that have so many people wanting to put a gag in her mouth. I’d be interested to see how she handles the next trial that comes along. Don’t get me wrong, Nancy has, on more than one occasion, caused my blood to boil, but I’m willing to give her ONE more chance! That being said, Jinkasarus is a decent host/reporter, but I really wish HLN had kept Beth Karas instead!
I had to chuckle about your defense of NG. I know she’ll be happy to know you are a avid watcher. I think the best I’ve ever seen her act/behave was when she went to the prison and interviewed several women. She seemed to actually feel sorry for them.
I liked Beth Karas, also. I do wonder where she went after leaving HLN. I read a couple different articles about her. One article stated she was too moderate and honest for HLN [HLN was called tabloid propaganda in this article, which I am beginning to believe] The article also said she got too close to the Hughes and their friends during the Arias trial. There was a picture of her posted with Hughes and Deanna and two other friends of Travis Alexander. Maybe she will go to work for Fox news! There was also a petition started to get her back on HLN but it had less than 3000 signatures.
First, i apologize for my typos last post . That’s what happens when i try to type in bed, lying on my side after ODing on food (Grilled butts, BarBQ chicken, baked bean, mac and cheese, quinoa, pesto tortollini with strawberrys n asparagus, watermelon with feta and mint, veggie casserole, guac/chips, key lime pie, 3 cakes, it goes on………sorry just dreaming about getting another plateful) Bobbi, i am glad that Nancy has you as a friend. Maybe Beth not around due to her own feelings, or vacation time. But, on TT’s elephant in the room point, i genuinely think there are two things in play: 1) these talking heads likely do not watch the trials in total; they are busy being talking heads and so read the headlines on their screens that production tells them to; as to 2) well, that’s the point………..what are they being told to say? I think most networks are afraid to admit that the case against GZ is not so cut and dry as many of us were led to believe prior to trial. I am finding that i prefer Fox for what little i have seen, and generally Anderson Cooper tries to be pretty fair……….but most of these programs, IMHO, have great FEAR of any finger pointing at them for being racist, and so, they fall into the world of what i would call: “PC OVERCORRECTION” or “left-siding bigotry”–the art of trying so hard to not appear racist that you are as bigoted in the opposite direction. I think that this attitude stems from absolute fear on the part of networks. Too bad that Hanoi Jane’s hubby’s network doesn’t display a little more guts.
Beth is gone????? Damn, i do hope she goes somewhere else…………Fox might be a good fit for her. I did not know, but that makes me sad.
Rose, I’m glad I gave you a chuckle…..at least you didn’t call me a bleeping bleep bleep! I’m going to check out the petition for Beth Karas ~ every signature helps!……….Doc, I believe you have a valid point regarding HLN’s fear of appearing racist. I really wish they would stick to reporting on the trial without taking one side or another. It is obvious that opinions are divided on this site and elsewhere, but HLN should let us judge for ourselves! I don’t want to have to say, “Good bye, friend!”
I think if this case was NOT A MEDIA CIRCUS that any judge would grant acquittal at this point for lack of evidence. However, with the eyes of the world watching it will never happen in this one.
I still do not see the judge as prejudicial. Your mileage may vary.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Tamara Tattles
You bet your sweet bippy! (too young?) 🙂 If Judge Nelson were to grant an acquittal, I believe she would be run out of town! IMO
I’m sure I saw flames shooting out her ears last time she was on. I hope they have her sedated until waaay after the verdict comes in.
Amen. Bless her heart!
Oh my gosh, Jahvaris Martin makes me want to cry. I just want to hug him. He is so nervous he’s having to take deep breaths just to get through this.
Did the defense score on this witness? Something about them pointing out that they are not brothers or that he wasn’t sure that was TM’s voice that he heard? I heard it passing trying to roll out of bed this morning.
I think he contradicted his mom’s testimony that the recording was played only once, brother says twice. Although O’Mara didn’t make a big deal out of it. Other than that he didn’t do any damage to either’s case because it’s expected he and his mom would say it’s Trayvon.
He will be called by the defense and they’ll try to prove he listened to the recording more than he said he did.
I only started listening but whoever is twittering on the side of the live feed said the brother wasn’t sure at first if it was TM screaming but had told a reporter he didn’t know if it was TM screaming. Then he said he didn’t want to believe it was TM but he was in shock and denial. O’mara tried to impeach him, state objected and the brother is going to return to the stand after the recess.
The ME did take off TM’s clothes so they must have put them in the plastic bags.
Thanks Rose. I’m off today – other than a quick trip to the state store and pharmacy, I’m watching this. Yes, I have fireworks at home – put the computer in the kitchen – and make some fruited chicken salad – long island ice tea—YUM!
I can’t believe that I missed the family testimony. I assume it will be shown all day long. This ME is interesting. He seems to LOVE testifying and wants to give a lot of general lecture to the jury on his previous cases, his experience, his knowledge on how he comes to his decisions, etc. I can’t wait to see what the defense does with him.
When I tuned in, the defense was asking for evidence as if they didn’t have anything. How could they not be ready for the ME? What am I not understanding there?
Bendy????
I don’t know why they didn’t have autopsy pictures. That just doesn’t make sense to me.
ME has testifies that TM could likely not move his arms after being shot. This is big for the prosecution.
Then he told West he might have been able to move, maybe, a little. And I then think he took it back. I don’t think he really knows if he could move his arms or legs. And how can the ME use another case to prove this one? Would it not be hearsay if the father of the 40 year old that was shot in the heart told someone that his son lived for 1 to10 minutes and could not move? I thought that was crazy
Does everyone know there is a live feed of this trial? It’s so much better than trying to watch it on HLN and is also a twitter feed on the right with people in the courtroom reporting things as well. Since I’m not sure about links – it’s WPTV News channel 5 out of Florida, and it’s commercial free – interruption free.
So the ME doing the autopsy removed the clothes. He was considered a John Doe. I think he said they started looking at the body the next day.
He also said the shot didn’t kill him for 1 to 10 minutes and only the right lung was punctured so, yeh- he could speak, imo.
The judge seems in a bad mood today, who was speaking out of turn? I get West, he seems to be okay – but he’s a little challenging – O’Mara’s my guy though – cool and to the point.
The general tone today feels very different from previous days. Judge Nelson sounds even more curt to the Defense than I have seen before. Tamara, I wonder if others were google snooping on a particular topic over the weekend because the Defense brought it up on Friday.
Spill the beans Ma!
I think West might be doing the cross on the ME. I hope not, though. Isn’t the prosecution suppose to share all evidence. Doesn’t make sense defense did not have those pictures. Maybe this is part of the photos Angela Corey didn’t share with the defense.
Bao did not say he was 100% sure TM could not move his arms after being shot. The defense might use that.
Does West seem overly aggressive and combative today?
Yes BECAUSE THIS ME will NOT SHUT UP and will say something back even to the judge. If there is an objection the ME tries to rule on it rather than the judge. This ME is very combative and refuses to participate in a hypothetical. JM would be ripping him a new asshole at this point.
Oh for the Juan days again, wonder how he’s doing?
Well, West did it. The ME prepared for the trial, reading from notes. Hmmmm, will they now throw out his testimony?
i DO LOVE JUAN!
Wondering if this ME is going to have an opinion of Zimmerman’s photographed noggin?
I don’t see that happening. I think Bao was there just for the examination of TM’s body and forensic evidence. Which was pretty much blown today.
Do you think the ME is killing the prosecution now? He says he doesn’t remember anything so how can he testify 100% about anything? Whoever packs wet clothes in plastic bag is fired next day!
He doesn’t want anyone to see his notes? Why? This guy is something else.
This is stunning!
The ME may be LITERALLY shitting his pants right now. The defense was having a very hard time with him until he started reading from notes. Then the attys have the right see the notes. WHAM!
Wow, the defense is going to have a field day with this! This guy is really not prepared, asking questions of the defense while they’re going over this notes -“Is there something funny there?”
Who asked that, the ME? This is fascinating. They are breaking for lunch so the attorneys can go over the notes. But don’t turn away yet. The ME is still on the stand and will likely continue to throw a fit.
Yes, while the defense was looking over the notes – you could see West pointing out something to O’Mara. At that point the ME asked, “Is there something funny – do you see something funny”, – but the judge stepped in and squelched his question. Wow, what a turn of events…
Do you think his credibility is shot now? It would be hard for me to believe anything he says. Does he really know if TM couldn’t move after he was shot?
I don’t doubt that this guy knows his stuff, but this was just a body to him – nothing special. He couldn’t even remember the day or autopsy, shows just how disengaged he is with his job, body in-body out. And I know that sounds crude, but it’s his job. But not knowing what his staff is doing – or what they did, i.e. not bagging hands, putting wet clothes in a plastic bag, sounds more to me like not managing his staff. Before he fires anyone, his whole staff and himself should be investigated for improper processing of bodies and evidence.
West asked for a copy from the court. ME says NO YOU CANNOT! He continuously tries to rule on objections and tries to rule as if he is the judge. I have never seen anything like this.
He was a trip, that’s for sure. Since he’s supposedly testified on numerous cases (can’t remember the number), and because he was caught admitting that he couldn’t remember even being there, used notes, etc., and this is not related to this case. Do you think that the prior cases he was a witness on are subject to a quick appeal on the basis of an ME that quite possibly could be incorrect? Wow, something to think about.
Meant to say that due to the ME’s admissions, could this open a can of worms with other cases that he’s testified on in the past. (Brain states one thing, hands type another)
Okay, I’ve got to ask – only because I heard it mentioned earlier on HLN. At the end of the prosecution witnesses, before the defense starts to call witnesses – the defense is given the opportunity to ask for an acquittal or mistrial. The reporters were stating they didn’t think this would happen – after this turn of events – do you think they will? And if so, would they get it and GZ walk free?
If the HLN crew said it would not happen, they are morons. IT WILL HAPPEN. It would happen if the prosecution’s case was air tight. It is SOP for the defense for the purposes of appeal. Watch on CNN! lol.
so the ME did a craptastic autopsy in a john doe.
Later it’s determined that this autopsy is going to be important so the ME took his notes and researched everything he found on the autopsy, that was in his original report. The problem now comes in that he has knowledge from other sources about this case so he is not just looking at the facts but forming opinions based on the facts in his report and the information he has from prior experience and possibly what he’s heard.
That’s how he can say Martin didn’t die right away and could not move, because he has related it to a case he had 3 weeks ago that he found similar. Nort something he knew a year ago.
This is bad about the plastic bags. I would think the police must have collected the clothes and he did see TM without except they have pictures of him clothed. And where are his pants and shoes?
I don’t know how bad this is about the opinion cheat sheet the ME has. maybe no big deal. I just know that all doctor’s notes have to be the originals and if you add anything it must be dated and initialed. I would think that should apply here.
This sloppiness and post post post mortem notes should call into question the procedures and conclusions of countless autopsies he’s performed in the past. Rao, who was speculating about the lumps on Zimmerman’s head photos has a history of sloppiness that’s caused her to be moved out of fire, so to speak by political pals. I found and article that says she was a mess, as in washing her feet in the autopsy sink,and not using gloves at times.
Thank you Ma, that’s exactly what I think. I’ve worked for surgeons and note taking and accuracy is essential, otherwise heads would roll. Like I said, it’s going to open up a can of worms!
Absoluety! I’m trained as a Medical Coder It’s a breach of ethics to skirt ANY documentation.
How can he remember some things 100% clearly but have absolutely no memory of so many other things? Something that bothered me was that he said the bullet went in straight. If that is so, then did the big button TM had on his hoodie have a hole in it? It was reported that the bullet hole was under the button.
I think he will be making some calls on his lunch break hoping someone from his office can refresh his memory about this case. One of the hosts on the live stream I was watching said he probably made notes about what he thought he would be asked. The defense seems to always ask such probing questions that that won’t work in this trial.
The afternoon session should be interesting if the judge can get him to quit talking long enough for West to get actual answers from him
The bullet going in straight is a major point of disagreement. And how can his testimony be believed if he is repeatedly saying he has no memory of the autopsy? Of course all MEs see tons of bodies and would have difficulty remembering from two years ago. But that is what the AUTOPSY NOTES are for, you do not get to use notes you made up yourself after hours at home to explain things that are not in the autopsy notes.
The commentators on wftv.com9 said the defense has hired the best medical examiner in the country but did not say who? Any idea who that might be Tamara?
I would guess by your description, Dr. Henry Lee. Hopefully not Micheal Baden. Both are notorious paid ME’s in high profile jury trials. Media whores. IMHO
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Tamara Tattles
Geeze. I hope neither of them. When I hear that either of them are involved in a case, I assume that they are testifying for a guilty person. That bozo (whose name escapes me now) that testified for Phil Spector is another paid liar.
I believe that is Baden. I could be wrong.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Tamara Tattles
Outside the presence of the jury, the judge had a Richardson Hearing. A Richardson hearing is a hearing to conduct an inquiry into the surrounding facts and circumstances of an alleged discovery violation. The defense wants to prove that the prosecution was privy to Bao’s change in opinions regarding TCH in the system. The judge has ruled no Richardson violation occurred.
Bao continues to interrupt and participate in dialogue between the attys and the judge! I cannot believe the judge doesn’t stop him from doing that. Jury is returning now.
Live stream…prosecutor raising his right hand and swearing about something before the judge, obviously about something to do with ME’s personal notes.
This dude is sinking the ship.
Wow. The Judge is keeping the tox report on marijuana from the jury!? She sounds like she’s about to have a tantrum.
I don’t think that is what is happening.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Tamara Tattles
Can this guy really be this dumb? Are all ME’s like this? I am so frustrated.
This is amazing. I would be commenting more but I have been working on a tedious post about the jurors. Collecting data, etc. But I am SHOCKED that the judge allows this guy to keep interrupting her rulings, the attys objections and things that do not include him at all.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Tamara Tattles
0.4 inches to 4 feet is considered intermediate contact, as the ME states that so “not to get myself into trouble”, seriously???
Ok. I’m rolling my eyes so hard, it hurts.
What a frustrating witness! I give it to West that he kept his cool. The judge was kind of snarky at one point during the Richardson hearing which did make her seem biased at that point.
The lawyer, Bill Shaefer on wftv.com9 said he thinks the ME’s change of opinion about the marijuana and the judge not letting it in could be a reversal error if GZ is convicted.
Did anyone think TM was on trial here? I’ve heard people say that but I did not see that in any way.
Rose, the only people who i have heard say TM is on trial were people who are not watching the trial….with all due respect, uninformed. Now, i caught a bit about the entire ME change in position re: THC levels such that TM could have been stoned……..ie under the influence. I also am led to believe that the possiblilty of mental alteration due to a substance is fair game when there is a claim that someone’s behavior was complicit in how the violence carried out. So, judge says “no admit”…………great for appeal (along with, oh i dunno, how about Angela Cory (sp), for ex ???) This info is not about character asassination but, rather, goes to state of mind of the victim. Bet this judge is gonna need same rehab as NG when it all comes down.
Hi Rose, I think you are correct, TM hasn’t been put on trial the same way Travis Alexander was thrown under the proverbial bus. But hey, TA was some white guy, so no repercussions. No one has dared say anything against TM, because it may be misinterpreted as being racial. Bring on Al Sharpton and his vociferous lot. Like poking a mama grizzly bear with a stick.
The judge in this case didn’t allow it. The judge in JA let everything including the kitchen sink in.
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Tamara Tattles
Sandra, let’s not forget that JA and Travis had a relationship. a history….these two men did not . They were strangers. As such, i think anything that could go to TM’s state of mind ON THAT PM should be given for consideration. Otherwise, not so and prejudicial. Yes, texts and pics seem incriminating (doesn’t include a publishing online of what i have been led to think expressed agressive ideation on TM with RJ texts???) But talk is cheap and TM saying he wants to buy a gun in November 2011 could have just been that: “talk”. And besides that, what would wanting a gun then have to do with GZ…..these two never knew each other……both apparently had some negative ideas about each other.
I’m beginning to think the Judge wants the conviction so she “looks” good, even if it’s reversed on appeal.
Judge clearly rules heavily in favor of prosecution. If GZ found not guilty/acquitted, there would be no grounds for appeal by prosecution. How could prosecution argue against the judge who kept ruling in their favor?
However, as you say, if GZ convicted, there would be a whole lot of room for defense to use for appeal.
I agree, after watching O’Mara’s statement, she didn’t think about it – not a pause – nothing. Just stated the case would proceed. I’ve heard she’s tried a case similar to this, but it was on the stand your ground defense. The guy went to jail, the case was overturned after he served a partial sentence. I notice she seems to favor the prosecution, and cuts the defense no slack.
I don’t know of any judge that would take on that responsibity. I think the jury should decide.
Prosecutors do no appeal cases.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Tamara Tattles
From everything I have seen from this trial it looks like Zimmerman will be acquitted. All I can say for his family is maybe they can sue for wrongful death. The burden of proof is so much lower than what he has been charged with right now… then again maybe they have been through enough pain and suffering. This whole case makes me feel so frustrated and sad for the loss of this child.
Two years ago my nephew was gunned down in Chicago along with some other people just walking down the street by gangbangers who decided to shoot up the neighborhood. No one was ever charged and we all still grieve over his loss. Sometime all you can do is pray and sometimes you have to swallow your bitterness so it does not eat you alive.
The thing that grates on my nerves so much about this case is it just seems like so much of the same thing, our children having their lives snuffed out and there never being any justice doled out.
Zimmerman could have at least had the decency to say he regrets this ever happened. He could show that he cared that this all came about. I think he gave an apology once but that was AFTER the interviews where he said he had no regrets and after he was charged.
I see T. M. and I see my nephew, both dead and no one answers for it.
GZ was probably cautioned against making any kind of statement that could be used against him in court. He may make a statement after trial over? Just because he hasn’t said anything to this point does not necessarily mean anything right now.
We are protected against Double Jeopardy. If a person is acquitted he can never be tried for the same crime. He could even confess after he’s acquitted but he would not be held accountable. That’s why the Prosecution gets all the evidence on someone that they can because they get one shot. They don’t get a second shot.
Thanks for the clarification of appeals process, I stand corrected.
wicked, i am so very sorry for your pain and loss……..i cannot imagine the level of frustration and anger that could be involved with such a senseless crime and tragedy. I wish and pray the best for you and your family.
Guess who has another one of her spectacular jury descriptions posts up???? DId you guess me?
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/05/juror-descriptions-bios-voir-dire-statements-from-george-zimmerman-trial/
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Tamara Tattles
I loved the zeal of GZ’s uncle Meza. I think he was a strong witness and loves his nephew greatly. And he came across as very honorable and credible.
Some on another blog are saying that GZ didn’t recognize his own voice so how could his mom or uncle. One stated that our voices don’t sound to us the way it sounds to others which reminded me the first time I’d heard my own voice recorded. I was so shocked at my southern drawl.
Oh my gosh. I cried when his uncle testified.
Me too, Beverly. I noticed at one time that GZ had to choke back tears.
I agree. He was holding back tears for both his Mom and Uncle.
I don’t find it unusual George didn’t recognize his own voice. Our voices sound different in our heads, that recording is distorted by being far from the origin of the screams, and screams in terror would not sound like a regular yell or voice.
George’s mom and uncle are credible but so was Trayvon’s brother. I think the Martin family wins this one just on emotion alone. Trayvon’s brother was powerful on the stand. He should have been the family spokesperson this past year. His mom’s grief has manifested itself as a bitter pill. Greif will do terrible things to a person and it has made her less sympathetic than her son’s sadness and raw emotion. That said I hope they don’t put him out in the public eye. I feel like he would not be able to handle it, like he’s barely able to keep it together. I hope they don’t put him back on the stand. I do not want to see anyone hurt him in that way.
I do agree with you regarding Trayvon’s brother. I found him very appealing and credible. His mother comes across as lying. I don’t like her and her attorney, Crump and their handling of Dee Dee. She seems very shady to me.
I 100% believe it is George screaming for help.
Wow. I don’t see Trayvon’s mother as lying at all. I see her as a grieving mother who mustered all of her strength to be cross examined by the defense.
Defense was very gentle with TM’s mother, but still had to ask her some very important questions. She seemed very angry, as opposed to upset.
Ms. Fulton avoided answering defense questions last question about whether or not she hoped that TM did nothing to contribute to his own death. She tap danced around a response, and defense didn’t keep pushing at it, lest they look like insensitive clods.
Why did the prosecution think there was relevance in TM’s tattoos? Defense couldn’t object w/o sounding heartless.
TM’s mother has been in court since the beginning of the trial and has heard all the evidence, all the testimony, and all the questions. How can she be relied upon to not conform her own responses to those she has already heard?
I think that none of the questions that the defense asked TM’s mother were necessary. I thought the “don’t you sort of have to hope that your kid didn’t do something to cause his own death” question was heartless, reprehensible and that the answer was completely irrelevant . I don’t think he should have crossed her at all.
I would probably agree with you except it was the prosecution that put her on the stand in the first place.The defense had the obligation to defend their client. They responded to the direct exam of prosecution. Perhaps it was the prosecution that should have been more sensitive of her feelings and not put her on the stand to begin with. Why was she called as a witness? Basically to say it was TM’s voice on the tape. Prosecution did not have to have her on the stand to do that. It could have been brought in through other testimony. It was an obvious play for juror sympathy and emotion. There should have been no direct and therefore, no cross.
Nah, the prosecution needed to call her to say that it was TM’s voice. The defense already knew they had family of George that would say it was his voice. It’s a wash. No need to as dick questions like “I am sure you HOPE you kid did not cause his own death.” Not crossing would have earned O’mara sensitivity points with the jury.
O’Mara tried to express some sensitivity towards Ms. Fulton right at the beginning but was cut off at the knees by the judge. She’s been through enough, no need to subject her to more turmoil. But, if she demanded to be put on the stand, against her lawyer’s advice, then she should have been aware of what questions may be asked of her.
Remember that the defense’s job is to raise the question as to credibility/reasonable doubt. They so far have done a great job with almost every witness, and i have seen little testimony that was not refuted or left to question once a witness was crossed examined and new info was brought out by defense. Another way to say this is “Is there another possibility here?” Just like the levels of THC POSSIBLY being an influence on TM’s behavior. To me, the defense has a right to question TM’s mom regarding her certainty of it being his voice………as in “if this was the voice of GZ, then the argument that the entire physical confrontation was likely started by TM”. It think OMara was great and sensitive and continued to do his job just fine. Hope i expressed this clearly.
Doc, also thought O’Mara was very sensitive to the family and did a good job questioning TM’s mom and brother. I was surprised when the prosecutor popped up when O’Mara told TM’s mom that he was sorry about what happened. O’Mara sounded very sincere. It made me think how hard it must be for a lawyer to have to question the family who has lost a loved one like this.
Doc, I guess that was what I was trying to say, but you said it so much better. I think O’Mara did very well for having to think on his feet. His questions may have been worded a little differently given an extra few minutes. I ‘m sure he was aware of the difficult position he was in. We wouldn’t have much of a justice system if the courts has to tippy-toe around witnesses, just in case questions hurt somebody’s feelings.
I guess my issue is with the one question. I know the intent was to show that the mother will of course want to HOPE it was her kid crying for help and that HE DID NOTHING TO CAUSE HIS OWN DEATH (that was the part I found over the line). It’s not case on tippy toeing around the feelings of a mother whose son was shot dead. It’s cost versus reward. I don’t think the reward (implying that she just wants to believe it was Trayvon and insinuating he was at fault) was worth the reward (the jury being unsure who was yelling for help). The same reward would come later when Zimmerman’s mother and Uncle testified.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a HUGE O’Mara fan. But if you haven’t noticed yet, I look at individual behaviors objectively (or try to) despite my feelings for the person creating the actions. Every notice how my feelings about the Housewives change from week to week? Caroline is my favorite but this season she is butting in to others business and being a busy body. I love her, but I have to call her on it.
Also, this is just my opinion. Y’all are welcome to yours. Just trying to explain mine a bit more. I’ll shut up now. 🙂
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Tamara Tattles
Noooo, don’t! Sometimes your the only voice of reason here. O’Mara didn’t do it as deftly as he should have, but he tried, under very difficult circumstances.
I’ve had to stop watching Real Housewives. I find myself wanting to wring all of their scrawny necks (figuratively speaking, of course!) I’ve never sen such vacuous, shallow individuals as those on OC and NYC.
Right at the beginning of HLN coverage of today’s proceedings, there was a side bar in front of the judge. Lawyer Bernie, talking to the judge, his left arm extended, used two finger in a jabbing motion pointing to the court clerk (darker hair, pink shirt, to the left of the judge) and is very angry towards clerk. He then turns to the clerk and continues talking angrily with the clerk, still using jabbing motion with two fingers in her direction. Wonder what the poor girl did wrong? What a jerk.
Judge Alex just said that the Defense’s ME expert that will testify is the guy who wrote the book that Prosecutor’s ME referred to for his medical exam. Judge Alex thought dr. Bao was terrible.
Sunny, a couple of things. I wanted to start a new entry to continue our discussion because all the replies make the posts so skinny. Anyway, I just saw the brother testify on Nancy Grace. The poor guy. He seems like such a good kid/young adult and he was so nervous. I did see the expression you noticed on George Zimmerman. It was definitely one I had not seen before. I could see it being interpreted as angry. He was as you say definitely reacting to the testimony. I also need to correct myself he was not teary eyed for that testimony as I thought HLN had said, it was when his uncle testified. His testimony is still going and it is for me harder to watch than his mother. He is so nervous. My heart breaks for him.
Sinlings often have completely different personalities, even twins. The prosecution would like the jury, and the rest of us, to think that TM was a carbon copy of older brother JM, implying that TM’s actions on the night in question are so far out of the realm of possibility as to be absurd.
SIBLINGS
He wasn’t a street thug either. It is my understanding that Trayvon lived in the neighborhood. There is no evidence that he was stealing or doing anything prior to the incident.
Trayvoon did not live in the neighborhood. He lived in Miami. He was sent to stay with his father after he got expelled. His father lived in an adjacent neighborhood. Travyon was cutting through on the way to buy some skittles and tea, in the rain.
So i did a little research online today and gathered info that “appears” accurate, though maybe not. Here is my best recollection of some #’s and info that i found: in the GZ neighborhood, there were over 400 “911” calls to police in 2011. 7 were made by GZ. In that community, the racial dispersion was something like 24% causcasion, 21% AA, 21% hispanic, and then a mix, including asians, others. So, to see a young AA male walking along was not uncommon. As well, there were burglerys, some in unoccupied homes, at least one in an occupied home. GZ actually helped to facilitate some actions that prevented such or ID perps afterward. There was also a shooting but i have no idea about circumstances (domestic violence?) I am sorry to not give source but not in place to spend time on my history right now. Point is that there was a problem in that neighborhood. Makes me think about where i first lived when i moved here alone with 2 dogs and a cat. That hood is now a crack hood and thank God i got out before it all went to hell. I have a suspicion that this may be some of the fodder for the defense.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio, a forensic pathologist and author of “Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques.”
The is the expert ME (Ret.) that Zimmerman defense is bringing in. Widely considered the expert on gunshot testimony.
I shouldn’t have said Trayvon’s mother “lied” on the stand. I do believe she is an opportunist who embellishes the truth. Trayvon lived with his father and STEPMOTHER, Alicia Martin, from 18 months til just a short time before the shooting when his mother kicked him out. Alicia was on Anderson Cooper the other night talking about Trayvon.
Michelle, are you saying he did not grow up in his mother’s home primarily? Ifnot, when did he come into her custody? I got no notion of this from brother or mom’s testimonies. I have read the texts from TM posted by defense and saw his references and texts re: his mom sending him to his dad’s (Sanford) from Miami………….also understood that she made this decision based on 3 school suspensions, and thought he was at dad’s a few days prior to incident. Her texts to him sounded like she made this decision for her inability to control him, but certainly out of love for his future and well-being. (she send couple texts that were loving but indicative of feeling that this was necessary).
TT, unless i misunderstood the maps i saw, TM DID “live” in GZ neighborhood, close to the other entrance. (ie, his dad’s fiancee lived there and thus so did TM, et al). It just looks like it would be a shorter walk to get to 7-11 through the neighborhood versus walking around outer perimeter. May have cut through another adjacent neighborhood, too, as this would be the shortest route..??
I started a new SIdebar, JUST FOR TRAYVON DISCUSSION. General trial stuff still goes her until I get a new one up for Defense Case in Chief for next week. But this should explain the Trayvon living situation.
http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/01/sidebar-george-zimmerman-trial-talk-for-monday/
I’m new here and made my best effort to update myself on the trial and everyone’s comments. I’m hearing a lot about who or what Trayvon was or wasn’t. Can someone explain what difference it makes.
From what I’ve heard so far, there is no evidence to show he was doing anything wrong. There is quite a bit of chatter as to whether he lived in the complex or not; whether he had a bad school record or not.; whether he was racist or not. What if he didn’t live there and was just walking through, or if he was a known thug? Or if he ad stolen before? What was the “probable cause” for GZ or even the police to stop him if he wasn’t committing a crime at that time.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m going down the wrong path.
BREAKING NEWS PLANE CRASH SEE POST WILL UPDATE http://s17948.p858.sites.pressdns.com/2013/07/06/breaking-news-asiana-airlines-777-crashes-at-san-franciso-airport/
Real Story, no one has ever said TM was committing a crime…only that he was suspicious because of the recent break-ins in that neighborhood, the pouring rain and standing or walking slowly between houses. This sounds so callous but I guess TM was in the wrong place at the wrong time when GZ saw him.
And GZ, being neighborhood watch and having the break-ins in mind…well, everything came down as it did. I do not believe GZ intended to shoot TM. He had no way of knowing TM or anyone else would be in that place at that time as he drove by.
This is my opinion only…that since GZ had a license to carry a concealed weapon, he more than likely carried it most or maybe every time he left his house.
Also my opinion…being racist could affect the way TM thought about GZ, rebellious because GZ was white. If he was a thug, then he might have been attempting to break in or cause trouble. None of that has been proven and briefly touched on in the trial. So, in my opinion, being in a certain frame of mind…is the difference those things could make.
GZ said he carried it at all times except work. His right. And yes, let’s acknowledge racism works in alot of directions. Being that there are MANY (not only TWO-contrary to what some like to think) races.
I love how mixed race people are white when involved with an incident with black people but if they are president of the US they are black.
LOL…….so right on! loveya girl!!!
Rose – Why would Trayvon care if the person stalking him was white or otherwise. It was only natural for him to be on alert if he smelled danger. Why would you consider it rebellious. Definition for Rebellious: [Showing a desire to resist authority, control, or convention]. GZ was not in a position of authority. If he was, did he notify Trayvon of such a position. I don’t think so. Why was Trayvon considered suspicious. Was everyone walking slowly through the community that rainy night considered a “suspect”. Or just the black guys as a result of the recent break-ins.
I’ve observed this type of profiling many times before. For example: During a recent visit to Las Vegas, NV,I experienced a usual suspect-type incident.
While shopping in a well know store in Las Vegas, NV, which will remain nameless, I noticed an employee look toward the store entrance door in response to a soft door chime. She quickly tapped a small intercom button on her shoulder while looking at another employee about 20 feet away. She quietly said, “we have two coming in”. I looked at the two women, then looked her. I asked if I should be concerned. She responded, “no”. She said they’d had a lot of shoplifting incidents recently. Being my usual nosy self, I asked if the two women were the shoplifters. She responded, “no, but, they are usually black. And, they are trained to be on alert, each time “one” comes in the store. I was floored. The employee was young and clearly immature, among other things. I suppose she felt comfortable enough to say that to me since I am white. And, after all, I did ask. The two women were followed around until they made their purchases and exited the store. Was that profiling, most definitely.
Did GZ profile Trayvon, I honestly believe he did. Unless, he followed every person walking in the rain that night. I’m sure, Trayvon wasn’t the only person wearing a hoody and talking on the cell phone while walking.
Was GZ in the wrong place at the wrong time. Was he on his regular patrol, or what was his purpose for being in that place at that time. As many have said, had he listened to the authorities, he would not be in court today, and Trayvon would not be dead.
Hey Real, i follow your line of thinking until you get to the point where you overlook what has been overwhelmingly cooberated by witnesses and evidence and testimony and research………..despite however/whatever you want to do to put all of this on GZ……….Trayvon also made choices……………the worst one he made was to be a participant in the undisputed physical altercation. HE CHOSE TO PARTICIPATE IN INTERACTION ON PHYSICAL LEVEL WITH GZ.
RealStory, I have no idea if TM cared if the person following him was white or black. I have no idea why he circled GZ’s vehicle twice or why he ran to his dad’s fiancée’s house but did not go inside, especially since he soaking wet. Or why he hit GZ, knocked him to the ground, straddled him, hit him and slammed his head on the sidewalk. I have no idea if GZ saw anyone else that he thought was suspicious or was walking around in a hoodie in the rain. I do believe TM was rebellious since he had been suspended from school 3 times and had been sent to live with his dad because his mom could not handle him. Definitely a sign of resisting authority, don’t you think? And I do believe GZ did have some authority as captain of the neighborhood watch.